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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 17 2018, 13:33

@Mppqlmd wrote:


Quote :
They shouldn't have ghost plate armour. Too similar to scourges.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't GPA available to Trueborns in 5th codex ?

It was. But in 5th edition Scourges couldnt take 4 heavy/special weapon.

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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 17 2018, 13:50

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:


Quote :
They shouldn't have ghost plate armour. Too similar to scourges.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't GPA available to Trueborns in 5th codex ?

It was. But in 5th edition Scourges couldnt take 4 heavy/special weapon.

It would make sense for the Trueborn role to change. Perhaps as the "heavy duty upgrade to kaballites? I'd like to see them in ghostplate with shard carbines, personally.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 17 2018, 13:57

I'd like trueborns to either A, lose an attack, or B, have a real cc profile/weapon.

Paying for stats you don't use is not something i like

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 17 2018, 14:20

If, as I mentioned, Trueborn live silver spoon lives compared to the gangs of Hellions, why wouldn’t they have better training and thus better stats? Hellions are essentially street thugs, hence little to no training and their 3+ WS and BS is from their racial abilities. Trueborn on the other hand, assuming they’re invested in would receive some of the best training. If they get changed to not carry as many heavy or special weapons, it would make sense to me if they became BS 2+ or something. Give ‘em all haywire blasters or something.

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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 17 2018, 14:46

@Mppqlmd wrote:
I'd like trueborns to either A, lose an attack, or B, have a real cc profile/weapon.

Paying for stats you don't use is not something i like

Sure, lets make them even more like normal warriors only without obsec and lacking the ability to flush out a battalion cheaply. I know I love paying for LD on an MSU unit! lol! Just teasing Razz

But seriously, trueborn and BB have always been stupid. It was a lazy attempt to flesh out the 5th edition book with more elites (back then every book had about 8 for some reason) and they took the spehss mahreens route. "what if we made warriors like tac squads and trueborn like stern guard?" "Brilliant!" Rince, repeat for wyches ala vanguard vets. Or they could make us play like a eons old dying race and make our normal troops actually somewhat elite.

Any grey bush like myself remember being a tad miffed when the 5th edition book came out and they gut the warriors offense. Back in the 3rd days you could take 2 blasters and two lances/canons per 10 warriors. Even if they don't return to this, tueborn were already dead. They have to cost more then a warrior, but less then a scourge which prices them into the most inefficient spot imaginable.

I am actually very pleased to here they ware splitting the benefits up. It will make list creation a more thoughful process but it also means we get more flavor. There was no way of allowing for 3 separate keywords all with a list of different named traits under one banner, thats nuts guys. The only way they could have done it was ala dark angels, which is incredibly lame and unfluffy. I also would not worry about mandrakes and incubi, I am sure they won't prevent traits, nothing like this has worked that way so far in 8th.

IDK, I am still very excited. If all they do is fix the garbage gear and adjust costs I'd be much happier. Getting bent out of shape over traits before we have ever had any ever seems unproductive.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 17 2018, 14:51

Well yeah. Make them the same price as warriors +1pt, with the same profile, but access to 4 special/2 heavy.

Right now you're paying extra points for 1 extra attack (you'll never use it) and +1 LD (you'll never use it).

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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 17 2018, 14:53

@Barrywise wrote:
If, as I mentioned, Trueborn live silver spoon lives compared to the gangs of Hellions, why wouldn’t they have better training and thus better stats? Hellions are essentially street thugs, hence little to no training and their 3+ WS and BS is from their racial abilities. Trueborn on the other hand, assuming they’re invested in would receive some of the best training. If they get changed to not carry as many heavy or special weapons, it would make sense to me if they became BS 2+ or something. Give ‘em all haywire blasters or something.

Weak argument. Why wouldn't a street thug that has to survive the literal hell of the streets of Commorah all on their own like savages be better then some gilded brat that has guards to do everything for them? That's like saying someone that has taken karate would be better in a street fight then an actual street fighter. The concept of trueborn always irked me a bit, the first thing to be on an archons chopping block would be a gilded class with training and finance to pull a coup d'etat. It isn't like DE would protect family, they would kill them at the first thought that they would betray them.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 17 2018, 14:55

Nepotism is the root of every good dictature. That's how I understand the existence of Trueborns.

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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 17 2018, 14:58

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Well yeah. Make them the same price as warriors +1pt, with the same profile, but access to 4 special/2 heavy.

Right now you're paying extra points for 1 extra attack (you'll never use it) and +1 LD (you'll never use it).

Terrible idea. Then they make warriors irrelevant. I'd rather they drop the garbage elite versions and simply make our troops more viable.
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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 17 2018, 15:00

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Nepotism is the root of every good dictature. That's how I understand the existence of Trueborns.

Right, because we all know dictators are well known for fielding their families on the vanguard of the front lines...
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 17 2018, 15:04

No, both would be relevant.

- You want cheap troops with splinter fire to help you fill your battalion ? Warriors

- You want to spend extra points in special weaponry, and don't care about CP ? Trueborns

"I'd rather have trueborns not exist at all so that warriors can look viable" is like saying "I'd rather have only one choice, so my only choice looks good". It's silly.


Quote :
Right, because we all know dictators are well known for fielding their families on the vanguard of the front lines...

You should really check the lore and background for trueborns. They are hiding in venoms, that they enjoy because it allows them to use other lowborns as meatshields. They prefer staying far from the action, and use the best shooting weapons that their fortune can afford them. They have absolutly nothing in common with vanguards or front lines.

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Last edited by Mppqlmd on Sat Mar 17 2018, 15:06; edited 1 time in total
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 17 2018, 15:04

Quote :
Right, because we all know dictators are well known for fielding their families on the vanguard of the front lines...

Well, when said family is functionally immortal...

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 17 2018, 15:12

The best way to handle a group of people is to give power and privileges to a small part of that group, and let them handle the rest of the group with that power.

The unprivileged are helpless to rebel, because they don't have the power to overcome the hierarchy. So you've already made 99% of your competition helpless.

The privileged are powerful enough to throw you out, and will do it if they are ambitious. Your job is then to make them understand 2 things : Everything they have, they have it because you gave it, and you can take it back at anytime. Control their ambition with the fear of losing what they already have.

So instead of having to control a group of 10 000 people, you control the one hundred privileged, and give them the responsability to keep the others in line.

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Rhivan
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 17 2018, 16:30

I agree with the above hut also throughout history aristocrats have used nepotism to achieve military ranks and fight on the front. Culture takes precedence on what job is preferred ( people used to fight for the right to fight on the front)
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 18 2018, 00:06

Simple solution to Trueborn:

They cost the same as Warriors and have the same stats base. They can get as many guns as they want, power weapons, upgrade their armour, all of it. Hell, they can take a power weapon, a bast pistol, and a shardcarbine, plus haywire grenades and Darklight grenades, if they really want to pay the points.

the catch is they come in squads with a max size of 5. if you want a large squad, you have to go warriors.
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Colonel Cabbage
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 18 2018, 00:48

I’m thinking the same way. Exactly the same as warriors, but they have all the kit and fill an Elite slot. It’s fluffy, it’s functional, it works. You will want warriors mostly for the CP and for MSU, butnyou don’t have to shell out on stats to get the heavy weapons team in.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 18 2018, 01:16

@Colonel Cabbage wrote:
I’m thinking the same way. Exactly the same as warriors, but they have all the kit and fill an Elite slot. It’s fluffy, it’s functional, it works. You will want warriors mostly for the CP and for MSU, butnyou don’t have to shell out on stats to get the heavy weapons team in.

Warriors should also be able to field much larger squads than Trueborn, because there are more of them.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 18 2018, 10:31

Or you could go by the old Skaven rule "You can't have more trueborns unit than Kabalite units", but that would be a bit of a limitation.

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Last edited by Mppqlmd on Sun Mar 18 2018, 13:51; edited 1 time in total
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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 18 2018, 12:36

i find it kind of sad that in a world dominated by 34839483943 marine elite picks we are even having a discussion about how justified it is to limit our already limited unit choices...
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 18 2018, 13:28

It's really dumb how far people who play Dark Eldar will go to justify the faction being terrible. And those same people were the ones who wrote a letter to GW making requests.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 18 2018, 13:51

@DevilDoll wrote:
i find it kind of sad that in a world dominated by 34839483943 marine elite picks we are even having a discussion about how justified it is to limit our already limited unit choices...

Right ? It's not like our army has tons of entry, so disposing of Trueborns and Bloodbrides would hurt us very much.

Quote :
It's really dumb how far people who play Dark Eldar will go to justify the faction being terrible. And those same people were the ones who wrote a letter to GW making requests.

The army is terrible because of disfunctional overpriced wargear, and disfunctional overpriced units. I don't think anyone around here is advocating for those.
I think having limitations in your army is actually a great thing, as it helps underline the strengths of the army (Orkz don't complain about having the worst BS in the game, for example). The problem with Dark Eldar isn't their weaknesses (many of which are logical, and follow the fluff), it's their lack of strength.

In other words, we are supposed to be a glass hammer. And we shouldn't wish to stop being glass, but we can hope to actually become a hammer.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 19 2018, 07:01

@Mppqlmd wrote:


The army is terrible because of disfunctional overpriced wargear, and disfunctional overpriced units. I don't think anyone around here is advocating for those.
I think having limitations in your army is actually a great thing, as it helps underline the strengths of the army (Orkz don't complain about having the worst BS in the game, for example). The problem with Dark Eldar isn't their weaknesses (many of which are logical, and follow the fluff), it's their lack of strength.

In other words, we are supposed to be a glass hammer. And we shouldn't wish to stop being glass, but we can hope to actually become a hammer.

I disagree with the notion that orkz don't complain about their balistic skill. Although they work well enough that they accept the bs and move on to crushing skulls in cc.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 19 2018, 07:37

Orks have more dakka to compensate for low ballistic skill.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 19 2018, 08:30

That's my point. They have a weakness, that enforces a specific playstyle, and underlines their strength. That's why Orkz has one of the strongest army identity in the game.


Back to Dark Eldar : being tough as wet paper, having no psychic ability, all of it is okay, as long as it helps underline a specific playstyle. In this case, it's supposed to be high speed, and high offensive power.
The problem with DE isn't their weaknesses. It's the fact that those weaknesses don't come along with the strengths they're supposed to underline.

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the_scotsman
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   v8 Codex tidbits - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 19 2018, 10:35

Orks and de have incredibly similar identity to reality mismatches. Incredibly similar. The only difference is that de are getting a codex in 2 weeks that might do something to change that problem and orks are slated to be warming shelves for another 8 months.

Ork concept: "they have quality in quantity! Mob rule makes big units hard to rout, and they make up for bad bs with Dakka!"

Reality: the dakka does not even come close to the massive disadvantage of bs5+. Many units in the game can either divide their shooting in half (-1 to hit) or actually make all their shooting go away entirely. The dakka dakka Stratagems is a good example of this in a nutshell. Ork hit rolls are so bad that the Stratagem will give a full unit of 30 shoota Boyz an average of FOUR extra hits.

And as for the other half of their identity, it functions on exactly one decent unit: Ork boyz. They're the only unit mov rule works with, the only unit which actually gets some kind of bonus to running at Max size.

Dark eldar concept: "poison and high AP anti tank guns mean your defenses don't matter! You can't hide either - they get stronger as the game goes on, and you can't run mevause they'll catch you!"

Reality: none of that, as we all know.
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