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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Mon Mar 19 2018, 10:52

Honestly, Orkz don't need a codex as much as others do. The vehicle spam has been hurt, but the greentide has never been stronger in at least 3 editions (and i've been playing orkz since 2nd edition). No more blasts, moral immunity for boyz, and a TON of attacks (made at S4 now) makes the boyz spam super effective.

I'm also a big fan of the new rockit launcha and the new flamer (less effective against stacks, but more polyvalent of a tool now), and i've been playing burnas and tankbustas to great efficiency. Honestly, i couldn't care less about units like shootas or lootas or flashgitz not being as effective now. Playing a shooting army is something I wound never do with orkz. In 7th you were forced to do so, because you could never reach cc against top-tier armies. Now, you actually can make a CC ork army that wins games, and it's awesome.

For Dark Eldar : we did have one of the best tank-hunting ability in the Index-meta. Now it's a bit outdated, because lots of codices increased the tank-hunting standard, but back when everyone was at index-level the Dark Lances were pretty top-tier material. Our problem was, and still is, our complete lack of anti-horde tools.

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Mon Mar 19 2018, 12:16

Ugh. 1 post of possible rumors and 5 pages of scrambling to justify our suckiness.

BUT- do you want to know what is "telling" to me?
the fact that ESE posted in this thread, and that post was not "This is a big pile of crap!"
that i find interesting.

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Elfric
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Mon Mar 19 2018, 15:26

I love Ork Flashgitz but the Snazz Gunz aren't as good in 8th. However put Dakkadakka Strategy on them, combined with Badrukk and ammo runtz and you have a pretty dangerous unit.
Stick Nobz with skorchas in a big trakk with supaskorcha amd regular skorchas for maximum carnage. Expensive but very powerful.

Ork HQ's are leaps and bounds better than the Deldar HQ's.

I don't mind True Born and Blood Brides going if it means regular Wyches and Kabalites can be upgraded. It means you can put more into the elite slots.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Mon Mar 19 2018, 15:36

In theory they need to allow us a slot for every sub-faction, that way every sub-faction can fill out every basic detachment. They made sure to do this with Harlequins, who have to their name fewer units than I have fingers. Haemonculus Covens lack Fast Attack slots, Wych Cult has no Heavy Support, and Kabals have no Fast Attack slots. If they remove Trueborn (and probably also Bloodbrides) then Wych Cult also loses its elite slot.

Also I'm 99% sure you could just run them out of the Index anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Mon Mar 19 2018, 15:41

If Incubi, Mandrakes and Scourges can be taken in a detachment without losing the Kabal/Cult/Coven trait then that would solve that problem.

That this is already a concern isn't making me optimistic, though.
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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Mon Mar 19 2018, 17:07

It’s not a concern, cults have ravagers, incubi and mandrakes fill kabal elite, and scourge fill coven FA

EDIT: Ravager is only kabal. Which makes this comment mute.

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Last edited by RedRegicide on Tue Mar 20 2018, 02:51; edited 1 time in total
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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Mon Mar 19 2018, 17:16

@RedRegicide wrote:
It’s not a concern, cults have ravagers, incubi and mandrakes fill kabal elite, and scourge fill coven FA
.

That's entirely wishful thinking, though... It's a concern because we don't know This is the way of things. Having to take 3 of these squads to fill a detachment also really sucks.
I don't want 3 pain engines, I want 2. I don't want 3 scourge squads... or 3 bike squads... or usually 3 of anything. Playing around with list building it's almost impossible to bring all the units I like at 1500 if we function like demon Loci. That suuuuucks.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Mon Mar 19 2018, 17:56

@Burnage wrote:
If Incubi, Mandrakes and Scourges can be taken in a detachment without losing the Kabal/Cult/Coven trait then that would solve that problem.

That this is already a concern isn't making me optimistic, though.

It seems likely that this is how it will work, however, as that seems to be the common precedent for non-faction-affiliated choices (see: Phoenix Lords in Craftworlds codex, Vespids and Kroot in tau codex)

I'm assuming that, of course, you mean that you can take them without your faction units losing their trait. You might be SOL, however, if you want Incubi and Mandrakes to take on the faction trait. However, if their unit rules are strong enough on their own, then it might not be much of a problem.
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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Mon Mar 19 2018, 21:42

@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
@RedRegicide wrote:
It’s not a concern, cults have ravagers, incubi and mandrakes fill kabal elite, and scourge fill coven FA
.

That's entirely wishful thinking, though... It's a concern because we don't know This is the way of things. Having to take 3 of these squads to fill a detachment also really sucks.
I don't want 3 pain engines, I want 2. I don't want 3 scourge squads... or 3 bike squads... or usually 3 of anything. Playing around with list building it's almost impossible to bring all the units I like at 1500 if we function like demon Loci. That suuuuucks.

Tau mercs work like that so there is precedent.

Fair, I feel you on wanting to fit all my units in and not spam.

Hopefully point decreases will help get your units in?
Anyone else thinking we may get stuck with two specialists detachments and a battalion detachment?

May end up using a patrol for covens, or trying vanguard with mercs

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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Mon Mar 19 2018, 22:19

Using all my models is overrated anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Mon Mar 19 2018, 22:26

I just want to use the ones i think are cool without paying 3x the cost...........

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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Tue Mar 20 2018, 00:43

@amishprn86 wrote:
I just want to use the ones i think are cool without paying 3x the cost...........

I know, right? We don't have nearly enough unit variety to justify pulling a demon Loci on us.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Tue Mar 20 2018, 00:49

@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
I just want to use the ones i think are cool without paying 3x the cost...........

I know, right? We don't have nearly enough unit variety to justify pulling a demon Loci on us.

Just for comparison, the number of units that each faction has in the Daemon codex and our Index;

Khorne: 21
Nurgle: 22
Slaanesh: 18
Tzeentch: 18

Kabal: 14
Wych Cult: 13
Covens: 10
Incubi: 2
Unaffiliated Drukhari: 5

Now consider that the rumour is that the Kabal and Cult are both losing one unit each.
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Tue Mar 20 2018, 02:29

@RedRegicide wrote:
It’s not a concern, cults have ravagers, incubi and mandrakes fill kabal elite, and scourge fill coven FA
Ravagers are technically <KABAL> only at the moment, although that could change.

I'll worry about subfaction detachments being an issue if it actually appears in the Codex. Given the number of options, if I was designing the Codex, I would be tempted to allow any Drukhari units in any of the detachments, with just the bonuses applying to the relevant type of unit. Will see what it looks like in a few weeks.

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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Tue Mar 20 2018, 02:50

@Kantalla wrote:
@RedRegicide wrote:
It’s not a concern, cults have ravagers, incubi and mandrakes fill kabal elite, and scourge fill coven FA
Ravagers are technically <KABAL> only at the moment, although that could change.

I'll worry about subfaction detachments being an issue if it actually appears in the Codex. Given the number of options, if I was designing the Codex, I would be tempted to allow any Drukhari units in any of the detachments, with just the bonuses applying to the relevant type of unit. Will see what it looks like in a few weeks.

Oh, I am mistaken. Okay, fair, that is concerning then.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Tue Mar 20 2018, 07:50

@the_scotsman wrote:
Orks and de have incredibly similar identity to reality mismatches. Incredibly similar. The only difference is that de are getting a codex in 2 weeks that might do something to change that problem and orks are slated to be warming shelves for another 8 months.

Ork concept: "they have quality in quantity! Mob rule makes big units hard to rout, and they make up for bad bs with Dakka!"

Reality: the dakka does not even come close to the massive disadvantage of bs5+. Many units in the game can either divide their shooting in half (-1 to hit) or actually make all their shooting go away entirely. The dakka dakka Stratagems is a good example of this in a nutshell. Ork hit rolls are so bad that the Stratagem will give a full unit of 30 shoota Boyz an average of FOUR extra hits.

And as for the other half of their identity, it functions on exactly one decent unit: Ork boyz. They're the only unit mov rule works with, the only unit which actually gets some kind of bonus to running at Max size.

Dark eldar concept: "poison and high AP anti tank guns mean your defenses don't matter! You can't hide either - they get stronger as the game goes on, and you can't run mevause they'll catch you!"

Reality: none of that, as we all know.

I am not really sure I agree with your there.
Mob rule also works for other units since you can use the ld of nearby units. Have 1 unit of boys and everyone can use that ld as long as they are close enough. Also a warboss (or was it nob unit?) can make sure you never suffer more than d3 mortal wounds in the morale phase.

30 orks = 180 pt => 20 hits
182 pt < 14 space marines => 18.67 hits
Orks shooting is not good, but they are cheap which still won't win them shooting contests but evens it a lot more then people give them credit for.
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Tue Mar 20 2018, 08:03

Yes, the faction train could be Warlord dependent. Have a Cult warlord and get Cult traits, no detachment restrictions.
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Tue Mar 20 2018, 08:40

@|Meavar wrote:
@the_scotsman wrote:
Orks and de have incredibly similar identity to reality mismatches. Incredibly similar. The only difference is that de are getting a codex in 2 weeks that might do something to change that problem and orks are slated to be warming shelves for another 8 months.

Ork concept: "they have quality in quantity! Mob rule makes big units hard to rout, and they make up for bad bs with Dakka!"

Reality: the dakka does not even come close to the massive disadvantage of bs5+. Many units in the game can either divide their shooting in half (-1 to hit) or actually make all their shooting go away entirely. The dakka dakka Stratagems is a good example of this in a nutshell. Ork hit rolls are so bad that the Stratagem will give a full unit of 30 shoota Boyz an average of FOUR extra hits.

And as for the other half of their identity, it functions on exactly one decent unit: Ork boyz. They're the only unit mov rule works with, the only unit which actually gets some kind of bonus to running at Max size.

Dark eldar concept: "poison and high AP anti tank guns mean your defenses don't matter! You can't hide either - they get stronger as the game goes on, and you can't run mevause they'll catch you!"

Reality: none of that, as we all know.

I am not really sure I agree with your there.
Mob rule also works for other units since you can use the ld of nearby units. Have 1 unit of boys and everyone can use that ld as long as they are close enough. Also a warboss (or was it nob unit?) can make sure you never suffer more than d3 mortal wounds in the morale phase.

30 orks = 180 pt => 20 hits
182 pt < 14 space marines => 18.67 hits
Orks shooting is not good, but they are cheap which still won't win them shooting contests but evens it a lot more then people give them credit for.


The main problem with that is penalties to hit, which weren't a factor in previous editions.

I think that the Orks in particular need some kind of "storm of bullets" rule that means you can't reduce their ballistic skill to worse than 6+. Maybe have it as a general rule in the next FAQ, since there are far too many ways to stack to hit penalties and far fewer ways to counter them.

I agree on having the faction trait be warlord dependent.


Also: FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS AGONIZING AND TORTUROUS, DARK ELDAR ARE ALREADY HURTING HARD FOR UNITS! DO NOT CUT MORE OUT!
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Tue Mar 20 2018, 09:17

Deleting Trueborns and BB is the trend we are observing last editions (remember our named Characters). So my predictions according this trend are following:

- fixed issue with no cost for Crucible of Malediction
- fixed bug when Haemunculus buffs toughnes for vehicles
- splintercannons slighly nerfed
- rockets on flyers are one use only like in good ol' times

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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Tue Mar 20 2018, 13:42

Don't forget:

Point decreases!
A couple useful traits, (pray for that -1 beyond 12")
A couple good strategems

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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Tue Mar 20 2018, 15:22

@SERAFF wrote:


- fixed issue with no cost for Crucible of Malediction
- fixed bug when Haemunculus buffs toughnes for vehicles
- splintercannons slighly nerfed
- rockets on flyers are one use only like in good ol' times

As well as:
-Shadow Fields failing if you suffer a mortal wound
-4++ invul save on wyches are in your turn only
-Mandrakes are -1 to be hit in shooting, not shooting and HTH
-Khymerae are 20 points per MODEL, not 20 pts for two.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Tue Mar 20 2018, 15:32

As long as they don't clarify the Ossefactor rules Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Tue Mar 20 2018, 22:41

@Mppqlmd wrote:
As long as they don't clarify the Ossefactor rules Twisted Evil

Dude, it's an okay gun that gets you one shot per 68 points of models on one unit only. It is not a cost effective weapon in the slightest.
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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Tue Mar 20 2018, 23:11

Quote :
Dude, it's an okay gun that gets you one shot per 68 points of models on one unit only. It is not a cost effective weapon in the slightest.

The rules are so badly written that my "exploding mortal wounds" interpretation has been accepted as logical and RAW everywhere I tried to play it (not in casual play of course, i'm not a mean guy).
Trust me, when you play it that way, and you spam it... things get very funny.

It's basically my troll-list. I love seeing 5 Space Mehreens explode after 1 shot. If the codex sucks donkey hooves, but the ossefactor remains as badly written, at least I'll keep my privilege to troll. Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: v8 Codex tidbits   Tue Mar 20 2018, 23:55

How many characters have we lost? 5? 6? We only have 3 left :/

Also, what is your ossefactor interpretation?
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