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FuelDrop
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Wed Mar 14 2018, 23:20

I'm a pretty vocal opponent of our current power from pain chart. I think that's pretty clear to anyone who pays attention to my posts Razz

So, I have come up with an alternative chart, which I will just throw out here.

1) Pleasure from pain: +1 on saves against damage 1 weapons.
2) Fleet of Foot: Reroll advance and charge, may treat rapid fire weapons as assault weapons when advancing and charge after advancing.
3) Punishing Precision: +1 on all to hit rolls.
4) Terror Incarnate: Double casualties inflicted on enemies within 6" of units with this ability for the purposes of calculating morale checks.
5) Inhuman speed: each unit may choose one phase each turn and act twice in that phase. For instance, a squad of warriors could shoot twice or a squad of wyches could fight twice.

An alternative option would be to invert the table: You start with all of it, but as the game wears on you start losing things starting at Inhuman Speed and going up in reverse order.

You will note that the philosophy of this list is that of offense and speed, without favoring melee over ranged. Gone are immunity to fear and +1 ws, replacing them with causing more fear and +1 to hit in both melee and ranged.
Fleet of Foot gives the rerolls we love while also making advancing far more viable for both melee and ranged units, in practice making us faster. Terror incarnate and inhuman speed are both very powerful and allow a late game turnaround in an army that tends to be either winning or losing badly at that point, thus turning the latter from a foregone conclusion or turning the former into a terrifying rout.

Pleasure from pain has been modified from a 6+++ because... well, frankly a Lascannon shouldn't be something that being kinky helps ignore. the +1 to saves makes DE infantry more sustainable against massed small arms (wracks and grotesques benefit from a 4++ invulnerable save against 1 damage attacks while Wyches in melee are rocking an epic 3++ against light weapons!) while leaving them squishy against overkill, thus tempting the enemy to bring on the big guns against our lighter units.

thoughts?

EDIT: Clarified Terror Incarnate and added 6" range limit.


Last edited by FuelDrop on Thu Mar 15 2018, 10:54; edited 1 time in total
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Aschen
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Thu Mar 15 2018, 00:36

I like it, but I think the last one is a bit too powerful. just look at how Ynnari lists are kicking everyones ass, and they are limited to 1 u nit doing it once a turn (via a psychic power or a unit dying within 7 inches of them). having a whole army that can do that is pretty damn powerful
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Thu Mar 15 2018, 01:04

The way I justify it so I can sleep at night is that it's kicking in at turn 5. Maybe turn 4 if there's some way to boost the progression. Turn 5 generally means there aren't that many DE units left on the board, so having them pull double duty to cover for casualties will allow for a late game resurgence that the dark eldar currently lack.
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Thu Mar 15 2018, 02:58

I don't think it is too powerful at all. Given what GW has been willing to do with some armies, I think it is perfectly in line. To Fuel's point...if you're still hanging around in any sort of meaningful way at turn 5 playing DE...you SHOULD be rewarded.

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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Thu Mar 15 2018, 09:49

@FuelDrop wrote:
I'm a pretty vocal opponent of our current power from pain chart. I think that's pretty clear to anyone who pays attention to my posts Razz
Btw before I just gotta say I love these speculation/fan rules posts. It's quite fun to play around with these kinds of ideas. Do keep this up! Very Happy

I sort of like the 1st one. The biggest problem with that, unless we get more defensive Chapter Tactics(like -1 to dmg for Coven would be suuuuper swell), CTs, is that Talos and Grots will eat dust agains Plasma and like Autocanons weapondry. But if we get different tables for the 3 different factions, I'd want your one on the Kabals and Wyches for sure. And to be fair you need to be Really kinky to ignore a Lascanon Wink

2nd, I really think the Kabals will get that rule as one of the CTs with Rapid Fire as Assault and Wyches will get Charge and Advance. Tha sure is making Reavers stand in a funny place. But if not, yes please!

3rd, this one's hard for me. To me it gives more insetive to play gun line Kabals with LanceBorn and Scurges hidden somewhere, hitting on 2s with massive guns. I'd like our units to stay mobile and prone to engage in close quarters. But I do agree that it'd be nice to get something for our shooting aswell. Maybe allowing us to move and shoot weapondry without penalty (both heavy and Assaut) could be something. Making it more reasonable to keep moving around and not getting restless leg syndrome.

4, REALLY like it. Might make it "for units within 6" of a unit with this rule. Just to be clear, you mean that every casiuallty counts as 2 instead of 1 when calculating Moral ? Not just do normal moral and 2 ran off = 4 ran off.

5, damn... that swell. Might be too good if we get some sort of advancing the chart as you said. But I do think that the last one should be wrecking. Maybe get to do it on a 4+ ? Just to tune it down a little bit ? But it make sence. Death of a thousand cuts. We're doing the cuts now, just not the thousands Wink


I personally don't like the inverted chart thing. To me DE don't really run out of steam but rather might get too extatic for the pain and death.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Thu Mar 15 2018, 10:22

@Von Snabel

I feel your comments are very good points, so allow me to explain my reasoning on them.

1) I really wanted to make Coven units, particularly Grotesques, hard to kill with small arms. I figure that this way it makes everyone badass, while opening up the door to a 6+++ stock on all coven units and a 5+++ coven tactic.

Will be honest am myself torn on Wyches having a 3++ in melee against most troops, but on the flip side it reinforces the master duelists angle. You need to have the melee experts get involved to reliably hurt Wyches. How do you know the Melee experts? they have the big weapons!


2) Dark Eldar need to be fast. Top tier fast. That is literally our defining attribute. Hence EVERYONE should be able to advance and remain combat effective. It should not be a cult specific rule.

Tactics can expand on this (eg: May fire heavy weapons while advancing, no penalties for shooting while moving, can rapid fire while moving, can shoot pistols after advancing, all of the above) but BASELINE everyone needs to be able to do something after advancing. Might accept losing it for Covens specifically.

3) This one is designed to encourage mobility for shooty stuff as much as anything. Because our assault weapons and heavy weapons still take penalties for moving/advancing even with Fleet of Foot, this offsets that while also giving us the option of being REALLY deadly when we slow down.

The fact of the matter is that this is not something that other armies don't have. Chaos can have their obliterator squads open up with something pretty close to 24 blaster shots worth of firepower, deepstriked, hitting on 2's rerolling 1's. Working on the assumption that we sadly will not be getting a significant increase in force multipliers from our HQs or wargear, and that our poison mechanic is unlikely to be significantly updated to compensate for changes between editions, we need to make every attack, every shot count as much as possible.

This ensures that every attack will count.

4) I like the within 6" limitation, and yes it is double the casualties for calculations, not the casualties inflicted by Morale.

5) If you are still holding out with DE at this stage of the game one of 3 things has happened:
1) You are already winning, in which case this turns the victory as decisive as a well planned raid should be.
2) it's neck and neck, in which case being able to pull a double advance with reavers to seize that objective or a double fight with the Succubus to clinch that slay the warlord during the last turn of the game might be just what you need to pull off the win.
3) The lesser races got lucky. You are on the ropes. In those cases, this is the kind of comeback mechanic we need. When things are at their worst we demonstrate why we are feared.


Hope you agree with at least some of my reasoning Smile
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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Thu Mar 15 2018, 11:02

1) Ahh yes, of course. Didn't think that far, my bad. Yeah Coven should atleast have a FNP save of some sort.
Yeah, the Wyches is kinda odd. Like hordes will have a really hard time dealing with them, but I'm ok with that. Plebs should have a problem with hitting Wyches. And with this Lilith would be a 2++ agains small fire. Now that's silly. But it's not something I'm against. Make her cost more if that's what it takes. (or make her 4++.... Please no ?)
But on that, would you rather have this rule or would you like to have wyches get their Invo as long as they're in Combat ? (Assuming we can't have both, and not taking into account any other units)

2) Makes sence, I retract my concerns.
I see no reason to loose this on Coven other than that I'd rather have something else since why would they need of this, Talos maybe ? For a fluffview they should have different tables, since they're trained different and would probably not act the same if invigorated.

3) Ahh, I see. In that case I think I rather have the rule that negates the penalty for moving in addition to something else. Otherwise some competitive player will defile this and make DE a filhty word. I do like the rule and I don't think it's broken or anything. I just want De to be encouraged to move and be a general pain in the arse.
But yeah, I think I get what effect you're after and I do kinda want the same.

4) Stellar! Im on board!

5) Fair point. And since it's most likely only for one round it'll be a bit more tuned. aswell if someone know this rule will go up on turn 5 they'll deal with us as you do with Necrons, make sure to murder a unit before moving to the next one.

But, do you think this might make so that the only viable strategy will be to stall even more than we do now ? Like atm you wait to strike hard until turn 3 for that 2+ in melee (With like Kabal/Wych bombs).
Do you think this rule will make it so that everything will be costed as to take that tactic into account, thus making it the only viable tactic ? Especially if we get some Chart Advancing Strategem.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Thu Mar 15 2018, 11:23

Those are some damn good points on number 5.

I would hope that GW would realize that most games don't last all the way to turn 5, and so discount this entirely when doing pricing. Holding out for turn 3 is a high risk high reward strategy. Holding out for turn 5 is pretty much suicide.


Btw, I want to share my vision with you. 5 Grotesques and their attendant Haemonculus vault out of a raider (or float in one case) and charge a squad of terrified conscripts. Lasbolts tear into the abominations as the Commissar shouts them into some semblance of order, but the horrific lumps of twisted flesh seem invigorated by the pain. The front ranks fix bayonets and utter prayers to the Emperor, and then the Grotesques impact like a wrecking ball through plate glass. The guardsmen put up a brave fight but no matter what they do the hulking abominations JUST! WON'T! DIE!
And behind them the twisted Dark Eldar chuckles as his creations harvest fresh materials for his labs.

Mechanically, this has: capacity 11 raider (or 10 + Character). 5++ becomes 4++ from Pleasure from Pain. 6+++ save from Covens, improved to 5+++ by Coven tactics. And the Haemie is still giving +1 Toughness while also healing one Grot per turn by d3 wounds.

Edit: I think that Wyches should have their dodge when in combat. Would even be willing to suggest they get it against any enemy within 6" of them, giving them some protection from overwatch flamers Smile


Last edited by FuelDrop on Thu Mar 15 2018, 11:26; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Thu Mar 15 2018, 11:25

I think the concept of a growing power from pain table is fair and interesting. The longer we fight (infliction of pain) the stronger we get.
However, in keeping with the spirit of 8th edition simplicity *and* nodding to the dissenters that think of it as counter-intuitive (calling it Power from Patience), I wouldn't mind a completely different take on the fluff inspired notion that DE absorb the anguish energy of those around them.

Something like: When any unit is killed choose a unit within 6" of it to gain the following ability until the end of your next turn: +1 move, +1 STR, +1 Attack, regain 1 wound.
Or something along those lines.

Could even get sub-faction specific:
A Coven unit receives +1 Move and +1 Attack
A Kabal unit: +1 Tough, Feel no pain 6+
Cult: +1 STR, Charge +2"

Along those lines anyway. Something to clean it up, simplify, give reason to actually attack and kill.


Last edited by nerdelemental on Thu Mar 15 2018, 12:46; edited 2 times in total
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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Thu Mar 15 2018, 12:23

Yeah. hopefully that'll do. Not sure how many competitive matches goes to a full conclusion. And since Ynnari don't get that rule the *interesting* Aeldari internal balance is unaffected.
In conclusion: you make a good point and I'm probably thinking way too rare occurrences that it should be ignored.

I do like that visiual. And I do think that it makes sence for Heamies and Succubi to be able to ride along decent squads of their favorite warriors. The Archon though I'm not sold. Might be my view on them as paranoid Nobel-class and thus woudn't cuddle up in a vehicle unless sufficient space is given to them and their feet. But on subject, I do think that sounds super cool. Making their saves equal to a 3+ agains most fighters make sense being a tower of flesh with no real organs to damage.
The lack of healing is something I was suprices we didn't get from the get-go. I assume it's because Heamies are realy good with that +1T as it is. but make it a upgrade or something. (Might be a relic or expand the WL trait to heal self or <Coven> unit within 3 for d3 wounds.)

I'd agree on that one. I'm trying to think of pistols that are AI that could be injustly countered because of this, hand flamers perhaps ? So perhaps make it in the Charge phase aswell as fight phase ? I'm unsure so I'll reseve my subjugation for now.

The table made a lot of sence with Pain Tokens. So yeah perhaps it could be time for a change. With that system it'd ecourage close quarters fighting, nice, making it go off when acctualy doing something instead of waiting for turn X, neato. Combine this with some range support and I think it could be cool. But i wonder if this is what we need or just a buff for our CC.

Could bring up builds to kill things with Kabals, buff the LIVING crap out of a Coven/Cult units and RELEASING HELL during the Fighting phase. But like, that seems to balance itself out. Killing alot within 6" = reducing Charge Targets in addition making MSU armies a bit sad. And you probably want to split it up all around anyways. Hmmm, this is a nugget I'll think on some more.
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Thu Mar 15 2018, 13:43

The suggestions are neat, but as long as it remains a table giving bonuses every turn, it will remain "Power from Patience".

The most sensible suggestion I read around here was "you gain a CP everytime you destroy a unit". Les raw power, but more tactical flexibility, and, if we get good stratagems, more overall efficiency.

I also dislike the principle of a PfP turn-chart in a game where alpha-striking is everything, and games are done by turn 3, often even earlier.

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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Thu Mar 15 2018, 18:51

I think the best thing would be to make Power from Pain an extension to the whole command point and strategem system. But sadly, this would work best only if the army as a whole would get a complete re-design (which is highly unlikely).

My suggestion goes as follows: During the game, you have certain PfP objecties which are unique to us. When we accomplish an objective we gain 1 Pain Point (name is subject to change).

An objective could be:
- Kill a whole unit or HQ
- Make the enemy lose 5 or more models due to a failed morale test.
- ...

I'd also suggest that our HQs have special bonuses when they are the warlord:
- Archon: Gain back spent PP on a 5+.
- Succubus: Gain an extra PP for killing an enemy character in melee.
- Haemonculus: Gain a PP on a 2+ when a <Coven> unit got killed.

You can spend these PP as currency for unit specific actions, like:
- Ravager: Have an additional shooting attack at a target within 18" away.
- Kabalite Warriors: Can make an immediate shooting attack after moving, at -1 BS.
- Wracks: Gain a 4+++.
- Grotesques: Can re-roll all failed to wound-rolls.
- Trueborn: Gain +1 to all their to-wound rolls.
- Wyches: Gain +D3 attacks per model when charging.
...
Alternatively we could also use them as command points.

Power from Pain is supposed to give us superhuman abilities, highlighting the fact that we are physically far superior to the Craftworld Eldar. The objectives should represent potential goals of a raid and the actions are incredible stunts that only a True Kin Eldar could have performed. It also fits are more finesse oriented playstyle.

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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Thu Mar 15 2018, 19:56

I would settle if we could choose the bonus. Just release cards like the psychic powers and write the rule like " at the beginning of each turn you can choose one bonus of PfP to your army. They are acumulatives.
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Thu Mar 15 2018, 20:58

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
I think the best thing would be to make Power from Pain an extension to the whole command point and strategem system. But sadly, this would work best only if the army as a whole would get a complete re-design (which is highly unlikely).

My suggestion goes as follows: During the game, you have certain PfP objecties which are unique to us. When we accomplish an objective we gain 1 Pain Point (name is subject to change).

An objective could be:
- Kill a whole unit or HQ
- Make the enemy lose 5 or more models due to a failed morale test.
- ...

I'd also suggest that our HQs have special bonuses when they are the warlord:
- Archon: Gain back spent PP on a 5+.
- Succubus: Gain an extra PP for killing an enemy character in melee.
- Haemonculus: Gain a PP on a 2+ when a <Coven> unit got killed.

You can spend these PP as currency for unit specific actions, like:
- Ravager: Have an additional shooting attack at a target within 18" away.
- Kabalite Warriors: Can make an immediate shooting attack after moving, at -1 BS.
- Wracks: Gain a 4+++.
- Grotesques: Can re-roll all failed to wound-rolls.
- Trueborn: Gain +1 to all their to-wound rolls.
- Wyches: Gain +D3 attacks per model when charging.
...
Alternatively we could also use them as command points.

Power from Pain is supposed to give us superhuman abilities, highlighting the fact that we are physically far superior to the Craftworld Eldar. The objectives should represent potential goals of a raid and the actions are incredible stunts that only a True Kin Eldar could have performed. It also fits are more finesse oriented playstyle.

This would ressemble the "Act of Faith" from Sisters of Battle... and I would totally dig that. Each one of our unit reacting differently to the power of pain would make great sense, be tactically challenging, and offer so many options.

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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Fri Mar 16 2018, 01:03

As much as I'm against Power From Patience, let's be honest, I don't think the progressive table is going anywhere. It's simple and requires no bookkeeping outside of normal, which fits nicely into the general design theory of 8th.

I do think, however, that Stratagems can shore up the lack of Alpha Strike the current system curses us with.

What if we had something like this,

3CP: Use this Stategem before the beginning of the first battle round. Pick a bonus from the Power From Pain table not yet in effect. Your army is considered to have this bonus for the entirety of the first turn.

Expensive, sure, but it gives you a nice bonus for Alpha Strike and helps to combat the patience in Power from Pain

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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Fri Mar 16 2018, 06:56

I'm not fond of the -1 to leadership from in our current chart as most games aren't getting to turn five so it rarely comes up in a game and morale while it does effect the game isn't the most helpful as many factions or units have a way around it.

I do however really like our current army wide fearless on turn four.

I like idea of specific units gaining not only a base pfp bonus but, also one based on them having kill a unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Fri Mar 16 2018, 07:16

Simplest version:
Power from Pain: Whenever a unit with this rule destroys an enemy unit, it may immediately make another movement, shooting, charge, or assault phase.
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Fri Mar 16 2018, 08:01

Jeah while there is a lot of nay sayers against ynnari the idea of their mechanic actually works really well for us.
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Fri Mar 16 2018, 09:57

@FuelDrop wrote:
Simplest version:
Power from Pain: Whenever a unit with this rule destroys an enemy unit, it may immediately make another movement, shooting, charge, or assault phase.

So you want soulburst essentially? You can do that already by taking Ynnari.
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Fri Mar 16 2018, 10:04

@lament.config wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
Simplest version:
Power from Pain: Whenever a unit with this rule destroys an enemy unit, it may immediately make another movement, shooting, charge, or assault phase.

So you want soulburst essentially? You can do that already by taking Ynnari.

I don't want it. I just went "What's the laziest possible way to do power from pain?" and it came to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Fri Mar 16 2018, 13:50

Considering GW has been handing rules like "If you have more beard than your opponent", Power from Pain could go like this :

- Everytime you fail a roll, you can step on a lego, hit your toe to a piece of furniture, or get stung by a bumblebee. If you do so, reroll that die".

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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Fri Mar 16 2018, 14:39

This sounds great.

By the end of turn 2, the Dark Eldar will be a combination of Harlequins, Death Guard, and Rubric Marines. Exactly as GW intended.

And if you still are having problems, just hang on. You'll be hitting on 2+ in all phases and the army will be scarier than Night Lords after turn 4.

After 4 turns, if your 2+ hitting Harlequin, Death Guard, Rubric Marine, Night Lord army still can't pull out the victory, you become Ynarri. Because why not?

This needs to be implemented ASAP. The Ynarri, Harlequin, Death Guard, Rubric Marine, Night Lord army is exactly what Dark Eldar was meant to be. If only GW would listen!
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Fri Mar 16 2018, 14:41

You might want to present yourself in the "Port of the lost souls" before you dive into heavy sarcasm Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Fri Mar 16 2018, 15:30

Sorry, I am not sure what you are getting at. I am clearly heavily in favor of the proposed changes.
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain Alternative list.   Fri Mar 16 2018, 15:32

Completely different idea. A 3 column table. Left column Pain Level - 1-5, middle column, units destroyed by both sides in previous battle round - 2,4,6,8,10, right column wounds suffered by both side in previous round 10, 20, 30, 40, 50. Pain level is decided by whichever column is the highest. Roll a D3 to decide the Pain Level for the first battle round.

Then you can have strategems to influence the table. Like 2CP to bump the table by one, or 1CP to self inflict any number of wounds before the level is calculated for that round, or 2CP to deal D3 wounds to an enemy unit before the level is calculated.
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