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SushiBoy013
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Sat Mar 17 2018, 03:56

@amishprn86 wrote:
DE troops are not meant to be Elite like Harlequins, and never has been.

Genestealers are no better than Elite units from other armies (Shiny SPears, Sguard/DC, Khorne Berserkers, etc....)  nor as good as Harlequins Troupes with HQ support (12man unit with -1 to wound 4++ and key unit shooting -1 to hit against them, can WWP, double move, even after DSing, can all have power weapons and melta if wanted, can re-roll wounds, has pseudo fly, fallback/shoot/charge). And you dont need 300pt character but 2 cheaper ones (about 200pts of characters).


DE Coven and Incubi should be the big hitters, Wracks would be a bit stronger but they are made to take a hit and still be in there (Genestealers are basically 5++ Orks with 2-3 Power Swords).

DE Troops are meant to be spam and thrown in the way or used as special weapon units.

I think it is worth noting that 'Elite' is an actual category and (unless I'm wrong) genestealers aren't classified as elite, they're classified as a troop choice; by the very nature of a troop choice versus an elite choice, the troop choice should be throw-away. Genestealers aren't, however, and they're point valued very close to our current dullard wyches.

Time will tell what happens with wyches, but I simply do not see our melee troop choice getting the same love a tyranid troop choice received.

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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Sat Mar 17 2018, 04:09

I hate it that our elites (Bloodbrides) stack up unfavorably against cheaper troops from lesser races. It's so dumb!
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Sat Mar 17 2018, 07:19

@SushiBoy013 wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
DE troops are not meant to be Elite like Harlequins, and never has been.

Genestealers are no better than Elite units from other armies (Shiny SPears, Sguard/DC, Khorne Berserkers, etc....)  nor as good as Harlequins Troupes with HQ support (12man unit with -1 to wound 4++ and key unit shooting -1 to hit against them, can WWP, double move, even after DSing, can all have power weapons and melta if wanted, can re-roll wounds, has pseudo fly, fallback/shoot/charge). And you dont need 300pt character but 2 cheaper ones (about 200pts of characters).


DE Coven and Incubi should be the big hitters, Wracks would be a bit stronger but they are made to take a hit and still be in there (Genestealers are basically 5++ Orks with 2-3 Power Swords).

DE Troops are meant to be spam and thrown in the way or used as special weapon units.

I think it is worth noting that 'Elite' is an actual category and (unless I'm wrong) genestealers aren't classified as elite, they're classified as a troop choice; by the very nature of a troop choice versus an elite choice, the troop choice should be throw-away. Genestealers aren't, however, and they're point valued very close to our current dullard wyches.

Time will tell what happens with wyches, but I simply do not see our melee troop choice getting the same love a tyranid troop choice received.

Just b.c something is elite, heavy, fast, troop doesnt mean the unit it self isnt elite, elite slot is more of a specialized, better equip unit. Tyranids elites are like Zoanthropes, Hiveguard, lictors, etc... there are not large units in elites like Genestealers, H/T gants, etc...

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SushiBoy013
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Sat Mar 17 2018, 14:08

@amishprn86 wrote:
@SushiBoy013 wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
DE troops are not meant to be Elite like Harlequins, and never has been.

Genestealers are no better than Elite units from other armies (Shiny SPears, Sguard/DC, Khorne Berserkers, etc....)  nor as good as Harlequins Troupes with HQ support (12man unit with -1 to wound 4++ and key unit shooting -1 to hit against them, can WWP, double move, even after DSing, can all have power weapons and melta if wanted, can re-roll wounds, has pseudo fly, fallback/shoot/charge). And you dont need 300pt character but 2 cheaper ones (about 200pts of characters).


DE Coven and Incubi should be the big hitters, Wracks would be a bit stronger but they are made to take a hit and still be in there (Genestealers are basically 5++ Orks with 2-3 Power Swords).

DE Troops are meant to be spam and thrown in the way or used as special weapon units.

I think it is worth noting that 'Elite' is an actual category and (unless I'm wrong) genestealers aren't classified as elite, they're classified as a troop choice; by the very nature of a troop choice versus an elite choice, the troop choice should be throw-away. Genestealers aren't, however, and they're point valued very close to our current dullard wyches.

Time will tell what happens with wyches, but I simply do not see our melee troop choice getting the same love a tyranid troop choice received.

Just b.c something is elite, heavy, fast, troop doesnt mean the unit it self isnt elite, elite slot is more of a specialized, better equip unit. Tyranids elites are like Zoanthropes, Hiveguard, lictors, etc... there are not large units in elites like Genestealers, H/T gants, etc...

I don't follow this. What is your definition of 'elite' then? My whole point is that they are too good for what they are (i.e. a troop choice). I'm pretty sure GW does try to place units into appropriate categories...but my other point was that GW seems incapable of creating a standard measure for what is a troop, what is elite, etc...and so you get units I would consider OP (Genestealers) who are priced average, comparatively to other troop choices, but are much, much more effective.

If that's what you mean by 'they're a troop choice but they're elite', then I agree with you...the Tyranids effectively have an Elite unit posing as a troop choice which is ridiculous.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Sat Mar 17 2018, 21:38

Genestealers might be better fitted in elite slot, but IMO they are not to good. This is my point, Making them troop or elite doesnt matter (especially in 8th now where you can have 18 elite slots.....) They are a "1 turn wonder and only if i go first" type of unit.


Im just saying, as someone with lots of experience with genestealers, they are not as good as you think they are and there are very few armies they are OP against, it just happens to be DE (mostly b.c DE have over costed vehicles, lack of infantry killing, and no movement buffs) just b.c they counter a couple armies doesnt mean they are too strong.


If your opponent is paying 460pts+ for that turn 1 charge to kill your Raider and 1 unit inside, let them. Set it up as bait and then just annihilate them after. Units will die turn 1, make sure its the units you want to die.


And im going to post more but as spoiler, be other "troops" can do just as much damage and movement.
Other Troops that are just as OP:
 

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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Mon Mar 19 2018, 07:23

I disagree a little bit with the general voice people say here.

What I hear is most armies have the speed to make a charge across huge ranges (and this is true).
I want to add to this that most armies can only do this with 1 or sometimes 2 units a turn because it depends on special characters or stratagems. Which is why you see so many units of 20 genestealers instead of 5 or 10.

It makes genestealers quite good, but I agree with amish, most armies nowadays can get one unit to wreck a lot of face. Which is also why the point values that I play (1250) are often ended by turn 3 or 4 since if someone gets the drop it means half an army is dead and it becomes an uphill struggle from there.
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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Mon Mar 19 2018, 07:56

@|Meavar wrote:
I disagree a little bit with the general voice people say here.

What I hear is most armies have the speed to make a charge across huge ranges (and this is true).
I want to add to this that most armies can only do this with 1 or sometimes 2 units a turn because it depends on special characters or stratagems. Which is why you see so many units of 20 genestealers instead of 5 or 10.

It makes genestealers quite good, but I agree with amish, most armies nowadays can get one unit to wreck a lot of face. Which is also why the point values that I play (1250) are often ended by turn 3 or 4 since if someone gets the drop it means half an army is dead and it becomes an uphill struggle from there.



There's lots of chaos factions with troop bombs as well. Bloodletter bombs, cultist bombs, and more.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Mon Mar 19 2018, 11:23

@|Meavar wrote:
It makes genestealers quite good, but I agree with amish, most armies nowadays can get one unit to wreck a lot of face. Which is also why the point values that I play (1250) are often ended by turn 3 or 4 since if someone gets the drop it means half an army is dead and it becomes an uphill struggle from there.

Pretty sure this is every points level in 8th edition. It's very rare that the winner hasn't been decided by the end of turn 2.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Mon Mar 19 2018, 11:31

Well, at higher points level (2k and up) you can afford to lose a few units, and still bash your opponent back. At 1k, if you lose 1 unit you pretty much lost the game.

But otherwise I agree, 8th edition is wayyy too much focused on alpha striking. It's overall fun to play, but watching a game of 8th edition is super boring : no suspens, no tension, just one player getting trashed and the other winning.

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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Mon Mar 19 2018, 17:33

I disagree that it's usually 1 unit that can make that charge. And regardless, even if it is one unit that makes the charge it's already made it's points back. A unit of genestealers aren't exactly easy to remove, and if you don't they murder you.

So, here's the problems I see. A unit of genestealers makes it across the board in 1 turn and destroys a raider with everything inside. Already it's basically made it's points back. Now, you have to take out all 40 genestealers (which I usually am playing against) or it's going to happen again. Breaking a 5++/5+++ is pretty damn hard with what we have right now.

Now, usually what I would do at this point is fly away to the other side of the board and focus down one part of his army,hopefully leaving these genestealers where they are. But we can't do that. We only move 14". If we get a stratagem to massively increase our movement, then great! Still can't do it with our entire army, and now we're sitting ducks.

So, we have to stay relatively nearby. We spend all our armies shooting destroying these genestealers. We're still screwed because now those 2 flying hive tyrants have arrived and they're smiting, shooting, and smashing every boat in sight.

genestealers are so great because they are:

1. Fast as all hell
2. Deadly as all hell
3. Relatively resilient
4. Are a primary threat that needs to be dealt with
5. Are fairly cheap
6. (Usually) fearless

I can't believe people are saying that genestealers aren't so good. They're fantastic troops. I have the same argument about ork boyz. They're insanely good for what they are.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Mon Mar 19 2018, 20:28

Im not saying they are not good. Im saying they are balance for a codex unit and are easier to remove than other stronger units that does the same thing, 5++/5+++ is very good, but so is a 3++/6+++ than many others have that can also turn 1 charge.


Another problem is 8th doesnt support a "good" turn base point system, maelstrom is terrible for it, everything is end game based, so for 5 turns all you care about is killing.

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SushiBoy013
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Tue Mar 20 2018, 00:02

@amishprn86 wrote:
Another problem is 8th doesnt support a "good" turn base point system, maelstrom is terrible for it, everything is end game based, so for 5 turns all you care about is killing.

I agree entirely with this. The goal is always to kill first. Your opponent can't worry about an objective if they're dead. GW simply messes with their own recipe far too much; each new codex edition feels less like a thought-out process and more like putting a continual Beta product into production.

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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Tue Mar 20 2018, 07:55

Jeah one of the reasons why I like bushido the game is you score points (usually in turn 2,4,6) but after one players dies the game is over. There is less alpha strike (or actually aplha strike is more targetted on objectives not on killing) If he scores in turn 2 and you kill his whole warband in turn 3 or 4 you cannot win since he has 1 point and after the game ends, you look at points scored not at who is tabled.
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Sun Mar 25 2018, 10:28

Probably not on topic so apologies but personally Im hoping that the special deployment the genestealers get (infestation nodes?) means that we might see something similar to the deployment tokens mandrakes got back in the 3rd edition codex return in our next codex. Might not be competitive but it sure was fun messing with your opponent using them.
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Sun Mar 25 2018, 12:11

@Rusty293 wrote:
Probably not on topic so apologies but personally Im hoping that the special deployment the genestealers get (infestation nodes?) means that we might see something similar to the deployment tokens mandrakes got back in the 3rd edition codex return in our next codex. Might not be competitive but it sure was fun messing with your opponent using them.

Well the difference is that the genestealers already came with the tokens. They would have to make tokens for mandrakes.

I personally like how they are now, b.c if they get tokens it would act like Genestealers and Terminators, it would for sure not be as good as DSing.

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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Sun Mar 25 2018, 12:14

I also wanted to add that Tyranids did GREAT at Adepticon!

But........ also 0 Genestealers were even used (like i was saying in another thread) Hive Tyrants and Mawlocs with Spores and rippers, that was 90% of all units (some had imperial guard)

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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Sun Mar 25 2018, 14:37

@amishprn86 wrote:
I also wanted to add that Tyranids did GREAT at Adepticon!

But........ also 0 Genestealers were even used (like i was saying in another thread) Hive Tyrants and Mawlocs with Spores and rippers, that was 90% of all units (some had imperial guard)

I mean, this is the thing. The sensible position we should be taking is not that Wyches/Bloodbrides are in a fine spot and that Genestealers are overwhelmingly strong, it's that Wyches/Bloodbrides are terrible and that Genestealers are one of the units that they should aspire to be similar in strength to. That Genestealers aren't one of the units currently showing up frequently in tournament Tyranid lists at the highest levels supports that.
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Sun Mar 25 2018, 16:07

Yes, you are on point.

They dont need to be tournament strong, but strong enough that we will want to play with them.

Genestealers are the perfect example of that.

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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Mon Mar 26 2018, 00:56

@amishprn86 wrote:
They dont need to be tournament strong, but...
Something needs to be tournament strong.

Otherwise the only Drukhari on the top tables will be 3 × 5 Kabalites as a screen for a Ynnari force.

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