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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Genestealer and why they exist   Wed Mar 14 2018, 11:32

Hello everyone
The last time i got absolutely demolished by 2x20 Genestealers I started to compare them to wyches/bloodbrides as i find the comparison very fitting:

both are melee units in a melee oriented army with strong shooting capabilities, both are similar priced at ~120 points for 10 yet the genestealers are utterly scary and the wyches are utterly wyches as we all know them.

bloodbrides cost 13 points without upgrades, can run 8", have 3 attacks each and poison+pain and that "useful" ability to tarpit and 3 hydra gauntlets (because lets be honest the other options are trash) and an agoniser.

genestealers cost 12 points, are tougher, stronger, have more AP (+rend), have a better save and a 5++ against shooting, can advance AND charge, have up to 4 power swords for free, can deepstrike on their own or with a trygon AND on top of that have an ability that grants them +1 attack if the unit has 10+ models, plus they are nearly fearless if you have an HQ next to them.

so coming to my question, why does GW hate us? and do wyches need to get better at killing or cheaper points wise?
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Wed Mar 14 2018, 12:06

Wyches do need to get better. I think at the moment that the Wych Cult's problems stem from GW massively overpointing their special abilities - Combat Drugs, No Escape, Dodge. Those latter two are all situational and hardly reliable, while the flexibility in stats that Combat Drugs give is nice but not worth more than straight up having the stats built-in.

There's no reason that a Wych should be 50% more expensive than an Ork Boy when the Boy has +1 S, +1T and +1A built-in. There's no reason that a Bloodbride should be more expensive than a Genestealer when it has +1S, +1T, +1A, +1 save and -1AP. Shining Spears massively outshine Reavers despite only being a point more expensive. Etc., etc.

Wych Cults definitely need a buff. I'm just hoping that the Codex helps them.
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Wed Mar 14 2018, 15:08

So many ways that could get wyches to a decent power :
- Death to the false emperor equivalent (+1 A for every 6 to hit)
- Tesla equivalent (every 6 to hit counts as 2 hits)
- more attacks
- AP-1 for basic weaponry
- Disembark after vehicle movement
- Dodge working against overwatch and pistols
- No escape being auto-pass/working against jump infantry

The last time wyches were viable, they were used to spam haywire grenades on tanks... How is it THAT hard to make them good duelists like they are supposed to be ? I don't want my wyches to be tank hunters or tarpits, I want them to be melee specialists.

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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Wed Mar 14 2018, 15:42

@Mppqlmd wrote:
- No escape being auto-pass/working against jump infantry

Wait, sorry why doesn't it work on jump type infantry? O.o Don't they still have the infantry keyword?
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Wed Mar 14 2018, 16:34

Things like Crisis would be the perfect targets for Wyches, but they don't have the "infantry" keyword.

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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Wed Mar 14 2018, 17:12

Oh, well yeah. That I know. I was worried I had somehow missed something in regards to like assault marines or swooping hawks. Yeah...it still bothers me that we were specifically told in one of the initial community articles that wyches would be great to lock down crisis suits... >_>

Though I did hear a rumor that the frontline gaming guys never playtested the indexes and only ever got codex rules, and that is why they had such glowing reviews on everything. :/ I don't know if it's true and I'm not even sure how to feel if it is true.
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Wed Mar 14 2018, 19:55

@Ubernoob1 wrote:
Oh, well yeah. That I know. I was worried I had somehow missed something in regards to like assault marines or swooping hawks. Yeah...it still bothers me that we were specifically told in one of the initial community articles that wyches would be great to lock down crisis suits... >_>

do you remember the blisteringly fast raiders? so blisteringly fast that wave serpents move further, are tougher, hence they cost 10 points more
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Wed Mar 14 2018, 20:01

@AzraeI wrote:
@Ubernoob1 wrote:
Oh, well yeah. That I know. I was worried I had somehow missed something in regards to like assault marines or swooping hawks. Yeah...it still bothers me that we were specifically told in one of the initial community articles that wyches would be great to lock down crisis suits... >_>

do you remember the blisteringly fast raiders? so blisteringly fast that wave serpents move further, are tougher, hence they cost 10 points more

Oh yes, I am quite aware of such promises that fell short. However I am slowly becoming more and more hopeful for the codex release. So...we shall see in theoretically less than a month now.
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Wed Mar 14 2018, 20:26

Remember its Codex vs Index, never compare it that way. All index units are getting better in some way or another.

With that said, the genestealers has ALWAYS been about being extremely good at "getting to you and killing you" its their purpose and from a tryranid players POV they finally are doing that for the 1st time in 5yrs. They are strong yes, but they are actually very balanced.

There also is another difference, Wyches get PFP, a pistol for free (genestealers have to pay for pistols and its like 2pts or something), Wyches can also stay in a transports. Genestealers must either DS or walk across the table, yes there are ways to get them to move 2x, but that isnt anything 90% other armies can do too, we are the ones that lack this ability.

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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Thu Mar 15 2018, 17:07

@amishprn86 wrote:
Remember its Codex vs Index, never compare it that way.  All index units are getting better in some way or another.

With that said, the genestealers has ALWAYS been about being extremely good at "getting to you and killing you" its their purpose and from a tryranid players POV they finally are doing that for the 1st time in 5yrs. They are strong yes, but they are actually very balanced.

There also is another difference, Wyches get PFP, a pistol for free (genestealers have to pay for pistols and its like 2pts or something), Wyches can also stay in a transports. Genestealers must either DS or walk across the table, yes there are ways to get them to move 2x, but that isnt anything 90% other armies can do too, we are the ones that lack this ability.

If you do some perfect synergy and build around it, a unit of genestealers from Kraken can move something in the area of 100" every turn. Against most armies I feel transports are more of a liability - things are way too fast in game now, and it's damn easy to get surrounds off.
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Thu Mar 15 2018, 18:01

@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Remember its Codex vs Index, never compare it that way.  All index units are getting better in some way or another.

With that said, the genestealers has ALWAYS been about being extremely good at "getting to you and killing you" its their purpose and from a tryranid players POV they finally are doing that for the 1st time in 5yrs. They are strong yes, but they are actually very balanced.

There also is another difference, Wyches get PFP, a pistol for free (genestealers have to pay for pistols and its like 2pts or something), Wyches can also stay in a transports. Genestealers must either DS or walk across the table, yes there are ways to get them to move 2x, but that isnt anything 90% other armies can do too, we are the ones that lack this ability.

If you do some perfect synergy and build around it, a unit of genestealers from Kraken can move something in the area of 100" every turn. Against most armies I feel transports are more of a liability - things are way too fast in game now, and it's damn easy to get surrounds off.
yes this is also what i experienced playing against genestealers, even if you hide in transports they surround you, models cant be placed and the entire unit is destroyed.
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Thu Mar 15 2018, 18:10

@amishprn86 wrote:


There also is another difference, Wyches get PFP, a pistol for free (genestealers have to pay for pistols and its like 2pts or something), Wyches can also stay in a transports. Genestealers must either DS or walk across the table, yes there are ways to get them to move 2x, but that isnt anything 90% other armies can do too, we are the ones that lack this ability.

but of what use is a transport that gets surrounded and destroyed before the unit can disembark? and all our pfp abilities apply to genestealers as well 6+++ =they have a better save and toughness, reroll charges = behemoth, +1 ws = broodlord, fearless = broodlord, and our (and their) pistols are laughable just as our melee capabilities
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Thu Mar 15 2018, 18:16

@AzraeI wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:


There also is another difference, Wyches get PFP, a pistol for free (genestealers have to pay for pistols and its like 2pts or something), Wyches can also stay in a transports. Genestealers must either DS or walk across the table, yes there are ways to get them to move 2x, but that isnt anything 90% other armies can do too, we are the ones that lack this ability.

but of what use is a transport that gets surrounded and destroyed before the unit can disembark? and all our pfp abilities apply to genestealers as well 6+++ =they have a better save and toughness, reroll charges = behemoth, +1 ws = broodlord, fearless = broodlord, and our (and their) pistols are laughable just as our melee capabilities

I agree. Our melee capabilities are woeful against any moderately dedicated CC unit. Hell, it seems I've invented new mathematical theorems to find the exact circumstances required for my wyches to engage a unit of boys without getting entirely murdered...
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Fri Mar 16 2018, 12:09

@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Remember its Codex vs Index, never compare it that way.  All index units are getting better in some way or another.

With that said, the genestealers has ALWAYS been about being extremely good at "getting to you and killing you" its their purpose and from a tryranid players POV they finally are doing that for the 1st time in 5yrs. They are strong yes, but they are actually very balanced.

There also is another difference, Wyches get PFP, a pistol for free (genestealers have to pay for pistols and its like 2pts or something), Wyches can also stay in a transports. Genestealers must either DS or walk across the table, yes there are ways to get them to move 2x, but that isnt anything 90% other armies can do too, we are the ones that lack this ability.

If you do some perfect synergy and build around it, a unit of genestealers from Kraken can move something in the area of 100" every turn. Against most armies I feel transports are more of a liability - things are way too fast in game now, and it's damn easy to get surrounds off.

As a person that has 15k Nids and has played them an insane amount, and knowing how the army works.

No you cant. Yes you can get turn 1 charges.

The most they can move is "movement 8, 3D6 pick highest advance (lets just say 6) spend CP to double that 6 for 12", for a total of 20", then use the Swarmlord to move you again and advance doing this all over again) for a total of 40", an average charge of 8" for 48"

If you spend more CP to attack again (you had to multi charge) you might get a full 9" more at the most from Pile in and Consolidate 2x (remember you must go to the closes tho so it might not even net you). And yes i understand fallback and charge again, but they should NEVER get to do that, if you cant kill the 20-40 genestealers while they are kraken and in your back field then its your list that is at fault.

In order to do all of this, you are spending LARGE amounts of CP and using a 300pt Character.



Tyranids can not have WWP's, they must use points via Drop pod or Trygon tunnel to DS Genestealers other than the Infest node that is in your deployment (it doesnt really help you at all unless you are against Alpha Melee armies).

So if Nids goes 2nd you can shut that down instantly, if they go 1st... you can shut it down (stay out of 48" or bubble wrap with a flyer, they cant charge or move at Flyers).



Remember tho, Genestealer in the Index were NOT GOOD. just like how Index units are, you can not compare Index to codex

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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Fri Mar 16 2018, 16:57

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Remember its Codex vs Index, never compare it that way.  All index units are getting better in some way or another.

With that said, the genestealers has ALWAYS been about being extremely good at "getting to you and killing you" its their purpose and from a tryranid players POV they finally are doing that for the 1st time in 5yrs. They are strong yes, but they are actually very balanced.

There also is another difference, Wyches get PFP, a pistol for free (genestealers have to pay for pistols and its like 2pts or something), Wyches can also stay in a transports. Genestealers must either DS or walk across the table, yes there are ways to get them to move 2x, but that isnt anything 90% other armies can do too, we are the ones that lack this ability.

If you do some perfect synergy and build around it, a unit of genestealers from Kraken can move something in the area of 100" every turn. Against most armies I feel transports are more of a liability - things are way too fast in game now, and it's damn easy to get surrounds off.

As a person that has 15k Nids and has played them an insane amount, and knowing how the army works.

No you cant. Yes you can get turn 1 charges.

The most they can move is "movement 8, 3D6 pick highest advance (lets just say 6) spend CP to double that 6 for 12", for a total of 20", then use the Swarmlord to move you again and advance doing this all over again) for a total of 40", an average charge of 8" for 48"

If you spend more CP to attack again (you had to multi charge) you might get a full 9" more at the most from Pile in and Consolidate 2x (remember you must go to the closes tho so it might not even net you). And yes i understand fallback and charge again, but they should NEVER get to do that, if you cant kill the 20-40 genestealers while they are kraken and in your back field then its your list that is at fault.

In order to do all of this, you are spending LARGE amounts of CP and using a 300pt Character.



Tyranids can not have WWP's, they must use points via Drop pod or Trygon tunnel to DS Genestealers other than the Infest node that is in your deployment (it doesnt really help you at all unless you are against Alpha Melee armies).

So if Nids goes 2nd you can shut that down instantly, if they go 1st... you can shut it down (stay out of 48" or bubble wrap with a flyer, they cant charge or move at Flyers).



Remember tho, Genestealer in the Index were NOT GOOD. just like how Index units are, you can not compare Index to codex

Absolutely! I'm not making that comparison! What my comparison is, is that our transports are flying death traps simply because of how fast genestealers are now. Even removing the swarmlord from this equation, the genestealers get some fantastic movement potential with Kraken.


I typically play around 1500 points, so dealing with 40 genestealers (20 that have catalyst) isn't exactly an easy feat. It gets compounded by the two hive tyrants coming at you, which are backed up by neurothropes (those things are my bane!)


Now I agree - you can't compare DE and genestealers right now. However, if we maintain how slooooooow we are compared to other armies, then I'll be upset.


Sisters can act of faith move 24" with seraphim. BA can 3d6 charge deepstrike and advance+move before the game begins. Orks get re-rollable charges on a big unit of boys that can deepstrike.


Everything in this game has gotten substantially faster to the point where our "speed" (and I argue in many cases speed in general) is a non issue: speed simply doesn't matter because there are hundreds of ways for nearly every army to negate it.


That's the crux of my argument- dark eldar are not a fast army, but we're as resilient as one that should be.
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Fri Mar 16 2018, 17:00

Quote :

Remember tho, Genestealer in the Index were NOT GOOD. just like how Index units are, you can not compare Index to codex
I'm sorry but how exactly did Genestealers change from index to codex? they have the same rules, stats, just got the option for up to 4 pistols/swords and that infestation node
stratagems and kraken aside (as we dont have them either) they still pack more punch for less points
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Fri Mar 16 2018, 17:03

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Remember its Codex vs Index, never compare it that way.  All index units are getting better in some way or another.

With that said, the genestealers has ALWAYS been about being extremely good at "getting to you and killing you" its their purpose and from a tryranid players POV they finally are doing that for the 1st time in 5yrs. They are strong yes, but they are actually very balanced.

There also is another difference, Wyches get PFP, a pistol for free (genestealers have to pay for pistols and its like 2pts or something), Wyches can also stay in a transports. Genestealers must either DS or walk across the table, yes there are ways to get them to move 2x, but that isnt anything 90% other armies can do too, we are the ones that lack this ability.

If you do some perfect synergy and build around it, a unit of genestealers from Kraken can move something in the area of 100" every turn. Against most armies I feel transports are more of a liability - things are way too fast in game now, and it's damn easy to get surrounds off.

As a person that has 15k Nids and has played them an insane amount, and knowing how the army works.

No you cant. Yes you can get turn 1 charges.

The most they can move is "movement 8, 3D6 pick highest advance (lets just say 6) spend CP to double that 6 for 12", for a total of 20", then use the Swarmlord to move you again and advance doing this all over again) for a total of 40", an average charge of 8" for 48"

If you spend more CP to attack again (you had to multi charge) you might get a full 9" more at the most from Pile in and Consolidate 2x (remember you must go to the closes tho so it might not even net you). And yes i understand fallback and charge again, but they should NEVER get to do that, if you cant kill the 20-40 genestealers while they are kraken and in your back field then its your list that is at fault.

In order to do all of this, you are spending LARGE amounts of CP and using a 300pt Character.



Tyranids can not have WWP's, they must use points via Drop pod or Trygon tunnel to DS Genestealers other than the Infest node that is in your deployment (it doesnt really help you at all unless you are against Alpha Melee armies).

So if Nids goes 2nd you can shut that down instantly, if they go 1st... you can shut it down (stay out of 48" or bubble wrap with a flyer, they cant charge or move at Flyers).



Remember tho, Genestealer in the Index were NOT GOOD. just like how Index units are, you can not compare Index to codex


Also as an aside, I asked my friend who is also a tyranids fanatic how he and his tyranids buddies figured out the (it's actually) 95"movement. This is what he sent exactly:

Kraken genestealers roll 6 to advance ~40% of the time, so you use Opportunistic Advance to move them 20". During your shooting phase, the Swarmlord can let them do it again, so they've now moved 40". They charge during the charge phase, potentially moving up to 12". There's a 3" pile-in, then if they destroy all the models within 3" in the Fight phase you use the Overrun stratagem to move again another 20". That's all actually fairly realistic, optimistic rolling aside, but then if your warlord has the Mind Eater trait and is within 3" when it kills a character after the Overrun then it can choose the genestealers to move again. Since it's the second time they're advancing in a phase their movement is already modified, so you don't have to use Opportunistic Advance to move 20".


As he says, the last part is a bit optimistic, but the initial overrun is quite likely.
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Fri Mar 16 2018, 17:07

Quote :


Sisters can act of faith move 24" with seraphim. BA can 3d6 charge deepstrike and advance+move before the game begins. Orks get re-rollable charges on a big unit of boys that can deepstrike.


Everything in this game has gotten substantially faster to the point where our "speed" (and I argue in many cases speed in general) is a non issue: speed simply doesn't matter because there are hundreds of ways for nearly every army to negate it.


That's the crux of my argument- dark eldar are not a fast army, but we're as resilient as one that should be.


this pains me the most, other army (tyranids/eldar/MARINES?/Orks) are faster, tougher, kill more and have similar point costs.
i wanted to stress that with my post and genestealers were in the back of my mind.
the list of units goes on well beyond genestealers: wave serpents, crimson hunters, death company, shinig spears, harlequins, ....
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Fri Mar 16 2018, 18:27

The problem isnt Genestealers, its DE.
CSM, Orks, CWE, Harlequins, GSC, Nids, Chaos, Custodes, can all get key units into melee turn 1, or a large part of their army into melee turn 2.

The game has insanely sped up now and DE got left behind.

Heck..... just wait till you see what Necrons are going to do..... 3 units teleport within 9" (cant charge) but can still move and shoot, gaining Rapid fire and an additional -1ap, re-roll 1s. Sure its a 1/4 of the army, but Necrons are now where they want to be... large amounts of shooting units in your line that just shot and killed 3-4 of your units, and this is without some of their new stratagems, just character rules (tho, only 2 are even worth using imo).

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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Fri Mar 16 2018, 18:48

The problem is that, to make the game dynamic, movement doesn't mean anything anymore.

Everyone can deepstrike anything, half the units have ways to cover more than 15" in a turn... it's almost as if movement parts of the game were considered dull and uninteresting, and GW decided "okay, lets allow everyone to reach anything within a turn".

Vehicles flanking are gone. Unit orientations are gone. Weapon arcs are gone. True line of sight is now a thing. Everyone can move fast as hell. This isn't a positioning game anymore, it has become a "play before your opponent, throw buckets of dice, and kill him before he can finish his sandwich".

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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Fri Mar 16 2018, 18:56

@Mppqlmd wrote:
The problem is that, to make the game dynamic, movement doesn't mean anything anymore.

Everyone can deepstrike anything, half the units have ways to cover more than 15" in a turn... it's almost as if movement parts of the game were considered dull and uninteresting, and GW decided "okay, lets allow everyone to reach anything within a turn".

Vehicles flanking are gone. Unit orientations are gone. Weapon arcs are gone. True line of sight is now a thing. Everyone can move fast as hell. This isn't a positioning game anymore, it has become a "play before your opponent, throw buckets of dice, and kill him before he can finish his sandwich".

Exactly my point. In order for Dark Eldar to be kings of movement again, they need some outrageous movement values... which I don't think we'll get. Speed doesn't matter. The greatest strength of the Dark Eldar doesn't matter anymore. We need something else to compensate, because if we're as slow as we are and as fragile as we are, we're in a bad place.


I'm disappointed that my favorite phase of the game, the movement phase, is such a non-entity. My favorite tactic in 7th was to spend my first turn rapidly redeploying my army to make large parts of the enemies deployment useless. Now I'm lucky if I can outrun infantry squads...
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Fri Mar 16 2018, 23:12

Wyches are disgustingly bad. They die like flies to shooting and overwatch, which would be ok if they hit hard enough to make it worth the risk of using them in the first place, but they're awful in that too. They need MAJOR buffs to be worth taking Any suggestions:
change combat drugs from being +1 to a trait, which is pretty garbage, to an actual useful effect. Like the tesela rule in close combat, shred, or rending.
Points drop. Even with that buff they aren't worth 10 points 8 would be more like it.
Change dodge to work while engaged in close combat or maybe within a certain number of inches of an enemy unit attacking them. That gives them a save vs pistols.
Change raiders so that they can charge while occupied and have their passengers pile out into combat counting as having charged. This gives them a way of overcoming overwatch. Its also depicted all the time in the art work so let us Do it!
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Fri Mar 16 2018, 23:48

For Wyches to be even remotely worthwhile to me, they would need:
-A strong buff figure like the Succubus to entice use of both units and synergy purposes
-They need a hard 5++, improved to 4++ in CC because of T3
-They need drugs to be worthwhile and applicable, freeform drugs would be nice instead of the varied stuff we're forced into now
-Their weapons should be either some kind of Poison or have a rending modifier

In general, I'd love to see our Poison weapons have 6s turn into something like shuriken weapons (-AP) or be a damage multiplier to indicate Lethal Dose (d3 damage or 2 damage).

Otherwise, they will NEVER be useful to me, and I have like 50 of them.
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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Sat Mar 17 2018, 01:30

As soon as Tyranid codex dropped, I was inundated with Genestealers. I've been down this comparison route many a time.

The reality is, I have yet to face a unit as improved at Genestealers. Period. In terms of a standard troop choice, this unit has had the biggest improvement. The chances our wyches end up anywhere near them in speed, strength, attacks, or morale is pretty much out of the question in my opinion.

Someone is going to have to demonstrate for me the last time we got the 'genestealer' treatment to convince me otherwise. We're going to be expected to pull from Harlequins and/or CWE to round out our army. My worst fear and what I believe to be the most likely scenario.

Ynnari broke a lot in terms of singular army improvement for Aeldari. To improve one group too much is to make Ynnari that much stronger...that will be a huge limiting factor (and why I hate Ynnari)

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PostSubject: Re: Genestealer and why they exist   Sat Mar 17 2018, 03:09

DE troops are not meant to be Elite like Harlequins, and never has been.

Genestealers are no better than Elite units from other armies (Shiny SPears, Sguard/DC, Khorne Berserkers, etc....)  nor as good as Harlequins Troupes with HQ support (12man unit with -1 to wound 4++ and key unit shooting -1 to hit against them, can WWP, double move, even after DSing, can all have power weapons and melta if wanted, can re-roll wounds, has pseudo fly, fallback/shoot/charge). And you dont need 300pt character but 2 cheaper ones (about 200pts of characters).


DE Coven and Incubi should be the big hitters, Wracks would be a bit stronger but they are made to take a hit and still be in there (Genestealers are basically 5++ Orks with 2-3 Power Swords).

DE Troops are meant to be spam and thrown in the way or used as special weapon units.

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