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FuelDrop
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Tau Previews   Thu Mar 08 2018, 09:22

So, we've seen two Tau previews so far.

It's good to see them getting cool stuff, and sheesh they are getting serious upgrades! +6" range means their basic weapons are shooting at the same range as our longest ranged weapons. Reroll 1's on failed wounds in 6" on the other hand will make their flamers and meltas even more devastating!

Additionally their weapons are looking at serious upgrades, and I am hoping that their heavy plasma rifles are not too common because those things make Disintegrators look bad.

This is fantastic, because
1) Tau were really suffering in the index, so getting them upgraded to be a solid army again is great.
2) It gives me hopes for a reasonable DE codex.

The only thing that irks me is that their melee hqs are embarrassing ours, while still being better at shooting than our best ranged HQs, while also having access to mobility boosts, and being tougher. Seriously, Farsight is looking badass so far.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Thu Mar 08 2018, 10:57

I actually like their melee ability.
While it looks really badass (and is not bad), consider the following things.
A) Normal commanders still have to hit (probably an 3+ not a 2+)
B) Farclave is a special character, which means 1 max and 4 s8 ap4 d3 attacks while great, are not much compared to some of the other special characters out there.
C) The other two melee weapon profiles shown are probably artifacts and only have 1 or 2 attacks. Remember our great ichor injector with 1 attack.... Suddenly it looks a lot less impressive.
D) just looking at weapon stats does not matter much, the imperial guard also has a +2 or3 str ap 3 d3 weapon, but most other options are still much better in comparison since they can only give it to their commanders and commisars, who are frankly not that good in cc.

Thus While I like the boosts to the tau (and they needed some) I think their melee is still horrible.
reroll failed 1 to wound at short range is very nice, it means tau might also wish to be in enemies. The 6 inch extra range is also something the IG has and to be honest it rarely matters, most weapons that really want it won't have it (since they are/became assault and pistol) and I have always found that the long range weapons it matters less, although possibly with a range of 30->36 they just get in the bracket of long ranged heavy weapons which could be advantageous. for 24->30 I found the biggest influence is the longer rapid fire range.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Thu Mar 08 2018, 14:49

I'm not familiar enough with the tau arsenal to know if a 6" weapon range boost really matters for them, but I imagine there are at least a few weapons where it is pretty significant. Plus 18" rapid fire range on their already excellent base guns is pretty sweet. I don't think we can say how good Tau will be until we see the pts cost changes and all the stratagems, but I have high hopes that a well done Tau codex means good news for us.

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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Thu Mar 08 2018, 14:54

Ah, but the range bonus wasn't to rapid fire range, it was to the max range on rapid fire weapons. That initially scared the hell out of me as well.
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Thu Mar 08 2018, 15:38

It’s on both Rapid Fire and Heavy weapons no? Their SMS missile systems are able to shoot at 42” instead of just 36” now

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Thu Mar 08 2018, 15:50

Yes it's just rapid fire and heavy. I don't think 36"-42" is a big change, I think the range boost matters most for any rapid fire weapons since higher range for double tap, and any shortish range heavy weapons with around 24-30" range.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Thu Mar 08 2018, 19:34

Tau are going to get slaughtered this edition.

Lemme add on to this.

Tau are a very static army, they only function really in 2 phases; movement and shooting, and not really the former so much. They math people to death from the other side of the board. This means no skill is required to play them, but a skilled general will not really have much to work with. They dominate mid tables but cap out hard. These buffs will do nothing to alleviate that glaring flaw. Further, it's evidence the rules writers don't know their *** from a hole in the ground. Crisis Suits get to drop in with 4 flamers each, but cannot use those flamers because they have to deploy 9" away from the enemy. Whoops. And then anyone with half a brain will just charge them from out of range of the super lethal charge-repellant flamers, nullifying the whole unit. Yes, they can fly out of combat and still shoot, but only if they aren't surrounded by a wall of carefully placed screen or mauled by the combat itself. Then there is the removal of Commander spam which is so baffling I have literally hurt my brain trying to figure out why that approach was taken. Think about this for a moment, you have a unit that is, functionally, the only one worth taking in the Index pound for pound. You remove any and all ability to use the tactic in matched play and replace it with... what? Constant drumbeats of resurrecting the Riptide Wing? A unit that is dead in the water due to a deterioration table that suffers from Wraithlord syndrome? Broadsides that cost so many points you have to take out a second mortgage to add them to your list? Crisis Suits which explode on contact with the table?

What they could have done is modified the character rules to make HQ spam not so appealing for *everybody* and thus solving many problems at once but instead they physically remove the Tau Commander in specific like he was dropped out of Pinochet's helicopter. What's worse, marker lights, the glue that held the whole army together, are still virtually useless while the entire army still retains their abysmal 4+ shooting. It's clear GW has no idea what to do with the weeaboos and that makes me scared because everything I've seen tells me they don't know what to do with Dark Eldar either and our codex is rapidly approaching.

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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Thu Mar 08 2018, 21:34

Has the marker light table been previewed yet? Or even mentioned aside from commander longstrike counting as 1 higher on the table? If not then we can't really judge the usefulness, or lack there of, of marker lights. I'll admit that the commander limitation is baffling as it destroys competitive Tau lists. In terms of riptides I think the codex will bring them back, along with the stormsurge, but I don't think it'll be anywhere near what riptide wing was. And we don't know that broadsides will cost a second mortgage in points in the new codex, they will more than likely see a drop in such points, the hole they create in your wallet is a different story. And I'm a bit curious to see if they change the pulse accelerator drone with Sept Bork'an giving out a very similar version of it's effect. That being pulse pistols, carbines and rifles gain 6" to their firing range, which with pulse rifles being rapid fire, combining accelerator drones and Bork'an means that Tau infantry will be shooting 42" Strength 5 weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Thu Mar 08 2018, 23:13

Commander spam is dead, there is no really strong doctrine to make FireTeam spam any good... For what we've seen the viable strategy will be Riptides (18 S6 AP -1 D2 is something) and commanders to give them rerolls to hit.

I'm very disappointed to see that Hammerhead didn't really get any buff. They could have received the "shoot twice if not moving" rule.

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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Fri Mar 09 2018, 04:11

If the Kroot get buffed enough then they should at least have options in the fight phase. Alternatively, Battlesuit flamers could count as pistols when locked in combat.
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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Fri Mar 09 2018, 06:52

I heard that the new codex really focusses on tau and leaves the other units like kroot a bit lackluster.
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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Fri Mar 09 2018, 07:28

@|Meavar wrote:
I heard that the new codex really focusses on tau and leaves the other units like kroot a bit lackluster.

Sad

The ability to bring in auxiliaries has always been one of the best parts of the Tau Empire.
Hell, they could make entire minor armies to give them allies to bring in!

Can you imagine how awesome a Kroot Codex could be?
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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Fri Mar 09 2018, 08:25

@FuelDrop wrote:

The ability to bring in auxiliaries has always been one of the best parts of the Tau Empire.
Hell, they could make entire minor armies to give them allies to bring in!

Can you imagine how awesome a Kroot Codex could be?
I would love a mercenary codex army with things like kroot, tarellians, galg, maybe even things not only associated with Tau like Sslyth etc
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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Fri Mar 09 2018, 10:03

@|Meavar wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:

The ability to bring in auxiliaries has always been one of the best parts of the Tau Empire.
Hell, they could make entire minor armies to give them allies to bring in!

Can you imagine how awesome a Kroot Codex could be?
I would love a mercenary codex army with things like kroot, tarellians, galg, maybe even things not only associated with Tau like Sslyth etc

A Mercenary codex would be awesome. Everyone can take them, they are badass, but have no army special rules.

More powerful stats point for point, but they lack synergy to compensate.
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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Fri Mar 09 2018, 19:38

So like the Merc factions of Warmachine and Hordes where anyone can take them but that don't do anything for your main faction outside of just being more models ... That would be interesting ...
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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Sat Mar 10 2018, 06:28

@TeenageAngst In the latest episode of Splintermind, Brian and Alex say that they playtested the DE codex (among other playtesters) and although they're sworn to secrecy, the codex is "Solid"

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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Sat Mar 10 2018, 08:00

@Tounguekutter wrote:
@TeenageAngst  In the latest episode of Splintermind, Brian and Alex say that they playtested the DE codex (among other playtesters) and although they're sworn to secrecy, the codex is "Solid"

Even though I give Splintermind A LOT more credits than, for example, BOTLS, hearing that something is solid can lead to give disappointment (wyches, for example).

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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Sat Mar 10 2018, 08:28

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@Tounguekutter wrote:
@TeenageAngst  In the latest episode of Splintermind, Brian and Alex say that they playtested the DE codex (among other playtesters) and although they're sworn to secrecy, the codex is "Solid"

Even though I give Splintermind A LOT more credits than, for example, BOTLS, hearing that something is solid can lead to give disappointment (wyches, for example).

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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Sat Mar 10 2018, 13:34

I heard marker lights were:

Re roll 1s
Seekers
Ignore cover
Ignore move penalty
+1 BS

That’s from my Tau buddy, no link so grain of salt

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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Sat Mar 10 2018, 16:59

@Tounguekutter wrote:
@TeenageAngst  In the latest episode of Splintermind, Brian and Alex say that they playtested the DE codex (among other playtesters) and although they're sworn to secrecy, the codex is "Solid"

Everyone who has playtest anything for 8th has come out with a GW stamp of approval. I do not trust them any more than I trust jackwagons of FLG who said our additions in Chapter Approved were great.

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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Sat Mar 10 2018, 21:56

@TeenageAngst wrote:
@Tounguekutter wrote:
@TeenageAngst  In the latest episode of Splintermind, Brian and Alex say that they playtested the DE codex (among other playtesters) and although they're sworn to secrecy, the codex is "Solid"

Everyone who has playtest anything for 8th has come out with a GW stamp of approval. I do not trust them any more than I trust jackwagons of FLG who said our additions in Chapter Approved were great.

100% with you. Show me someone who has taken an objective approach to determining if a new codex/army is good in the past and i'll place some weight behind their judgement. I don't know Splintermind...I've never followed him/her/them...but if you can tell me they have done reviews that end with "...this doesn't get our seal of approval" in the past, then I'm willing to hear them out.

By the nature of getting the opportunity to play test and see rules in advance, I have no doubt it comes with a disclosure to A) not leak information in advance and B) not to trash the product prior to sale.

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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Sat Mar 10 2018, 23:56

What kills me is the fact that FLG and other playtesters are universally praising GW products even after release. Consumer advocacy is already so hard to find in this hobby when you have such hard fanboys of a corporation that frankly treats their customers as bad if not worse than most "AAA" video game publishers. The last thing we need are people who claim to be independent but actually in GW's back pocket trying to tell people to buy their stuff.

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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Sun Mar 11 2018, 04:29

@TeenageAngst wrote:
What kills me is the fact that FLG and other playtesters are universally praising GW products even after release. Consumer advocacy is already so hard to find in this hobby when you have such hard fanboys of a corporation that frankly treats their customers as bad if not worse than most "AAA" video game publishers. The last thing we need are people who claim to be independent but actually in GW's back pocket trying to tell people to buy their stuff.

Well put. I put something very similar out there to Reecius from FLG a few months back. When there is not a single poor remark made about the multitude of units, armies, and factions...you're clearly not bringing an objective stance to your 'review'.

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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Sun Mar 11 2018, 16:52

That's sort of the opposite of the people and groups who say only negative things, while being equally helpful/informative.

I like the Splintermind guys. They seem like mostly reasonable humans with mostly functional brains. I don't agree with everything they've said in their podcast, but that's to be expected.

Their involvement with the playtesting gives me some hope for the codex. That said, they were playtesters (presumably some of many) not the designers; their feedback may or may not have been listened to. Also, I haven't agreed with everything they've said on the podcast.

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PostSubject: Re: Tau Previews   Sun Mar 11 2018, 20:41

To be fair, they said their job was to make the "codex fit the fluff" and "some of it" is in the codex. Their contribution to the codex should not be overestimated.

They were very careful in their wording so they don't create a hype that would lead to unreasonable expectations. But then again, they clearly were excited. I think this is a good sign, but we shouldn't expect to get a AAA codex that approximates our wishlisting.

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