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 Cover question?

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Aschen
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PostSubject: Cover question?   Wed Mar 07 2018, 03:23

Had this come up in my game on sunday...

His dreadnought was touching cover(ruins), and was 50% obscured from one of my models. He said he would get cover. I said he had to be 100% inside cover to get it. WE looked at the rules, but couldnt find anything supporting his side...and the rules on ruins didnt have anything for vehicles...so just wanted to check here
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Cover question?   Wed Mar 07 2018, 04:50

I saw a recent battle report of someone claiming that you just had to be mostly obscured by something that grants a cover save in order to get it. I have absolutely no idea if that's right

A BOLS article says:
“If a unit is entirely on or within any terrain feature, add 1 to it’s models’ saving throws against shooting attacks to represent the cover received from the terrain (invulnerable saves are unaffected).  Units gain no benefit from cover in the Fight phase (pg 182).”
[...]

Why do my troops inside the forest get cover, but those standing behind it receive none?

I mean, the enemy still has to shoot through the woods to target them, even presumably past my troops lurking in those woods, so why does that provide no cover? That can’t be right, can it?  But this is the streamlined rule-set, and it’s all up there in simple black and white “unit is entirely on of within any terrain feature…”  So I look to the Advanced Rules section to check the Battlefield Terrain (pages 248-251) rules — surely this addresses the problem, right?  Nope.  It actually makes it worse.

Looking at the rules for Woods and even Ruins, now I find that not only does the unit need to be “entirely on or within” the terrain in question, it also needs to actually be Infantry, otherwise they “only receive the benefit of cover if at least 50% of every model is actually obscured from the point of view of the shooting unit.”

Something something, vehicles and monsters can't enter ruins or buildings. thus can't get cover...

Article in question

I think it's funny that he does bring up the point at the very end, why can a titan shoot out of melee, but the units in melee can't shoot the titan?

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Cover question?   Wed Mar 07 2018, 06:05

Cover rules are a bit messed up in my view.

As far as the rules as written go:

- there are basic rules on p181 and advanced rules on p248
- the advanced rules are optional
- by basic rules, any model gains cover if it is completely in or on terrain (if you are only playing basic rules then the 50% obscured is not part of the rules and the Dread doesn't have cover)
- by advanced rules, infantry on ruins get cover, and other units get cover if they are 50% obscured from the point of view of the shooting unit. So other units than infantry don't need to be on the cover, but need to be 50% obscured, and if playing the advanced rules the Dread would get a cover save.
- doesn't affect your case, but infantry that are more than 50% obscured by ruins but not on the ruin get no save.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Cover question?   Wed Mar 07 2018, 06:44

@Kantalla wrote:
Cover rules are a bit messed up in my view.

This is an understatement.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Cover question?   Wed Mar 07 2018, 09:57

Yeah, the current Cover rules are absilutely awful.

The basic rules say:
"If a unit is entirely on or within any terrain feature, add 1 to its models' saving throws against shooting attacks to represent the cover received from the terrain (invulnerable saves are unaffected)."

The Advanced rules break it down into specific types of terrain - woods, ruins, etc.
In the case of ruins:
"Infantry units that are on a ruin receive the benefit of cover. Other units only receive the benefit of cover if at least 50% of every model is actually obscured from the point of view of the shooting unit."

As I see it, the requirement of being obscured is an additional, not a replacement, to the Basic rules, requiring you to be ENTIRELY on or in the cover.
If the Dreadnought's base was not ENTIRELY in the cover, it gets no cover.
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Ragnos
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PostSubject: Re: Cover question?   Wed Mar 07 2018, 12:53

I also see it this way.

If it is infantry, being entirely on the cover terrain is enough. But if it's no infantry it needs to be obstructed by more than 50% in addition to being fully on the cover terrain.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Cover question?   Wed Mar 07 2018, 19:48

I see the rules for other types than Infantry being a replacement for the basic rule, but it is one of those that could be read either way.

Although it is not what the rules say, I would prefer them to be written as if a model's base is entirely within cover, or is 50% obscured, it gains the benefit of cover. It doesn't feel right for the tip of a Raider's sail to be visible over a building but because it isn't in the terrain, there is no benefit from cover at all.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Cover question?   Thu Mar 08 2018, 06:09

Jeah but I think that is quite an easy and common house rule. Both where I live and near my parents (whre I sometimes play) they used the rule of 50% even when not in terrain.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Cover question?   Thu Mar 08 2018, 10:46

Well, here's a way to settle it.

The FAQ:

"Infantry units that are entirely on or within a ruin receive the benefit of cover. Other units that are entirely on or within only receive the benefit of cover if at least 50% of every model is obscured from the point of view of the shooting model."
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