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 is it me or are we bad at wounding?

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SushiBoy013
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PostSubject: Re: is it me or are we bad at wounding?   Wed Feb 28 2018, 02:54

Our inability to land wounds is my biggest issue. 8th Edition Codexes have added a ton of invl. save and mortal wounds, of which we have very little of either. We are a very common case of index v. codex...which is why I absolutely detest GW's method of distribution. Span out over the course of a year, you're rewarded for playing Imperium (i.e. you're not going to have to wait for a codex for very long...) and you're SOL if you're anything else. Well...unless you're bad space marines, then you'll also get preferential treatment.

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Keast Kannegaard
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PostSubject: Re: is it me or are we bad at wounding?   Wed Feb 28 2018, 06:00

@SushiBoy013 wrote:
Our inability to land wounds is my biggest issue. 8th Edition Codexes have added a ton of invl. save and mortal wounds, of which we have very little of either. We are a very common case of index v. codex...which is why I absolutely detest GW's method of distribution. Span out over the course of a year, you're rewarded for playing Imperium (i.e. you're not going to have to wait for a codex for very long...) and you're SOL if you're anything else. Well...unless you're bad space marines, then you'll also get preferential treatment.

Try and tell that to the SoB and SW players Razz
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: is it me or are we bad at wounding?   Wed Feb 28 2018, 06:03

@Keast Kannegaard wrote:
@SushiBoy013 wrote:
Our inability to land wounds is my biggest issue. 8th Edition Codexes have added a ton of invl. save and mortal wounds, of which we have very little of either. We are a very common case of index v. codex...which is why I absolutely detest GW's method of distribution. Span out over the course of a year, you're rewarded for playing Imperium (i.e. you're not going to have to wait for a codex for very long...) and you're SOL if you're anything else. Well...unless you're bad space marines, then you'll also get preferential treatment.

Try and tell that to the SoB and SW players Razz

I remember the puppy's and their 5th edition codex when that dropped. Trust me, that was preferential treatment.
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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: is it me or are we bad at wounding?   Wed Feb 28 2018, 08:20

@ricorongen wrote:

The units i used were : 2 venoms woth dubbel splinter, 2 trueborn in it with 2 splinter cannons, no other upgrades.

They were out of cover, and yet i still had to use my scourges with blasters 2 groups of 5.

To actually take em out.

The fsct of the matter is : it should be a crying shame if you need bloody 6 units in total not withstanding even good dice or not.

It is kinda sad that SM is right inbetween "prefered zones" of our troop guns. But the nagain we wound just as good as Bolters agains them, so I suppose Sm player can use the same complaint ?
Now I might think of the argument that "Power armour is sturdier than carboard Kabalite Armour", and sure is. But haven't DE allways been a "kill them before they shoot"- sortof army.

On the nore of the amounts of units you used holds no water in my book. If you'd used 8 raiders with their one shot you need even more units. If you'd use Wracks with Hex rifels you need even more units.
I think I get what you try to say, it's just a little vage.

@ricorongen wrote:

Therefore i dare ti say tgat it is not just *bad* dice,  but a glaring problem that our supposed mighty guns cant reliable take down a frak troop choice of one if not THE most populair army ( t4 armour save 3+)

We reliably deal 1/9 wound per shot. Like allways agains Power Armour.
I do agree that poison might need a rework since the niche they held before is butchered, being good agains monsters.

@ricorongen wrote:

Its a crying shame that we need to ise our most expensivecl cc units and anti tank weapons to reliable kill a if not the most average of troop choices.
Agreeable to some extent. the biggest annoyance I have there is that we can't take more special melee weaponds. Cause if we could we could deal with them in CC instead. A couple of whips would make short work of them  Twisted Evil

@ricorongen wrote:

Knowing gdubs, i think our coming codex wont adres this saying : with poison you can easily kill a mc therefore nothing have to be done.
Since they're dealing with the competetive scene I hope that we're gonna get a more (Not every list vs every list) balanced game(hopefully like 40-60% winrate range). Sadly balance and variaty rarely go hand in hand and if given a choice I'm ok with having to bring some blasters to be able to not play "Sm in spiky eldar"-shape

@ricorongen wrote:

Very Happy this argument is always brought up with our friend group for why this army got scary guns, untill i point out that : everything we got is niche, and we aint having the true scary options like our former index brothers : the craftworld eldar.

We're not Eldar, nor are we Mechanicus.
Haven't DE allways been a little niche ? Sure in 7th everything was solved with Bikes, CtC and Blasterborn.
Edit: Forgot about the accessability of Haywire grenades in 5th/6th. So might be a me forgetting things.

@ricorongen wrote:

Just what i think but either they need to rework poison or they need to gve druhkari more hammer then a thousand cuts boost becaus so far, in my experiance our cuts aint actually wpund em, they only scrap the armour of our enemies.
Agreeable.
But I honestly like the death by a thousand cuts. The problem I have with the concept right now is the "thousand" - part. Need some more splinters out of those good ol' splinter canons.


Last edited by Von Snabel on Wed Feb 28 2018, 09:37; edited 1 time in total
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: is it me or are we bad at wounding?   Wed Feb 28 2018, 09:27

@FuelDrop wrote:
The main problem is you're using splinter weaponry. You can totally field a pure darklight army, and it is worth it.

Let's say I'm attacking a 10 man Tactical squad in cover. Exactly how many darklight weapons would I need to take out that one 130 point squad?

@yellabelly wrote:
I've enjoyed playing against Marines. I find them a much easier proposition than Tyranids, IG etc. They aren't too tricky to isolate and destroy. Marines in cover are hard to kill, but we have the ability to kite away from them and focus fire on more vulnerable targets, and force them to follow us out into the open. As others have said, that set of rolls really sucks for you and is way in favour for the marine player compared to expected odds. Annoying but it happens.

I will agree that if Marine players let you kite them, I've found that they're not difficult to handle at all. But somebody who's willing to bunch up in cover, taking advantage of the range of their heavy weaponry and absurd amount of rerolls? I'm not sure we have a good response to that pre-Codex.
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PostSubject: Re: is it me or are we bad at wounding?   Wed Feb 28 2018, 18:14

To kill EXACTLY 1, 10 man tac squad in 1 round of shots requires EXACTLY 18 dark light weapons firing without modifiers. Not worth it to fire 24 dark light weapons at tac marines. In other words 90 splinter shots will on average also kill 10 marines. That's 1 marine per 9 shots. 45 rapid fire kabalites to kill 10 marines. Last edition dissies were what I used to kill marines, not anymore at 30 points per dissie.

In conclusion, we just have no way of efficiently killing marines.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: is it me or are we bad at wounding?   Wed Feb 28 2018, 19:02

Quote :
In conclusion, we just have no way of efficiently killing marines.

Incubi and ossefactors.

Agonizers are quite nice.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: is it me or are we bad at wounding?   Wed Feb 28 2018, 19:58

Am I missing a more effective way to get Ossefactors onto the board than taking 1 per 5 Wracks? Genuine question, I'm not super familiar with the Coven side of our list.
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PostSubject: Re: is it me or are we bad at wounding?   Wed Feb 28 2018, 20:55

1 per 5 wracks is it. Would be nice if haem or grots could take it though.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: is it me or are we bad at wounding?   Wed Feb 28 2018, 21:50

@Burnage wrote:
Am I missing a more effective way to get Ossefactors onto the board than taking 1 per 5 Wracks? Genuine question, I'm not super familiar with the Coven side of our list.

No, unfortunatly that's the only way to get them.

But Ossefactors are quite cheap for what they do, and wracks are (IMO. I know many people disagree) actually good units for their price.

It definitly belongs to the friendly/semi-comp environnement, but I've had hilarious games with that type of list. They are a very nice counter to the Necron infantry spam, by the way.

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: is it me or are we bad at wounding?   Thu Mar 01 2018, 02:47

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
Am I missing a more effective way to get Ossefactors onto the board than taking 1 per 5 Wracks? Genuine question, I'm not super familiar with the Coven side of our list.

No, unfortunatly that's the only way to get them.

But Ossefactors are quite cheap for what they do, and wracks are (IMO. I know many people disagree) actually good units for their price.

It definitly belongs to the friendly/semi-comp environnement, but I've had hilarious games with that type of list. They are a very nice counter to the Necron infantry spam, by the way.
So is everything, Necrons are having a harder time of it than we are.

I think we're noticing the problem of poison more this edition because our main supply of it, Splinter Cannons, got nerfed really hard by going from Salvo 4/6 to Rapid Fire 3, halfing our ranged fire power whilst being more expensive than the far better options in other armies. Marines aren't really the problem though, poison might not be that great agaisnt them but Dissies are, my tripple Dissie Ravager killed about 500pts of Death Company/Sanguinary Guard/Mephiston/Lemartes last week. The real probelm is that the meta is now T3, whether it's Guardsmen, Cultists, Gants/Gaunts, Daemons, Guardians or whatever, our poison is horribly inneficient and Dissies are absolutely the wrong weapon for the job. We have no effective options there.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: is it me or are we bad at wounding?   Thu Mar 01 2018, 11:09

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
Am I missing a more effective way to get Ossefactors onto the board than taking 1 per 5 Wracks? Genuine question, I'm not super familiar with the Coven side of our list.

No, unfortunatly that's the only way to get them.

But Ossefactors are quite cheap for what they do, and wracks are (IMO. I know many people disagree) actually good units for their price.

It definitly belongs to the friendly/semi-comp environnement, but I've had hilarious games with that type of list. They are a very nice counter to the Necron infantry spam, by the way.

Just running the numbers here to sate my curiosity;

A single unit of Wracks with an Ossefactor kills an average of just under 1 marine a turn; you'd need 680 points of them to kill a 10 man unit. It gets even worse if they're in cover - you'd need 816 points on average.

Disintegrators are similar, but slightly better; you need 9 to be expected to kill the 10 man squad, which works out to 555 points of Ravagers. 740 if they're in cover.

For Kabalites in rapid fire range, you need 315 points (45 models) to kill them outside of cover and 630 points (or 90 models!) if they're in cover. Outside of rapid fire range you'd need obviously double that - 630 points (90) to kill the ones in the open, or 1260 points (180 Kabalites!) if they're hunkered down somewhere.

Mandrakes actually do surprisingly well, in comparison. You need 342 points of them (18 models) to kill the 10 man squad outside of cover, but only 437 points (23) if they're in cover.

Summary: if you want to kill Marines by shooting them, Mandrakes are currently the way to go - and also much better relative to our other options than I was giving them credit for.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: is it me or are we bad at wounding?   Thu Mar 01 2018, 20:00

First, thanks for your maths, it's always nice to have some unit comparison. You didn't seem to take moral into account (even Marines can flee), but that doesn't change the comparison so it's fine.

Second, I think you didn't consider the "explosive ossefactor syndrom" when running your maths. It will probably be clarified by the time the Codex hits, by right now the rules are clear : mortal wounds generated from Ossefactors can generate additional mortal wounds if they kill someone (that's why Ossefactors are so hot right now). I get that some people consider this to be abusive, but frankly, 8th edition is all about who gets the best gorgonzola (and we're not winning that competition) so i don't see why we shouldn't apply the RAW.


Third, considering Wracks are a Tank-melee unit that happens to be firing on their free time, I think it's kinda awesome that they are almost as good in Marine-range-killing as our main shooting infantry, don't you think ? Wink

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: is it me or are we bad at wounding?   Thu Mar 01 2018, 20:29

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Second, I think you didn't consider the "explosive ossefactor syndrom" when running your maths. It will probably be clarified by the time the Codex hits, by right now the rules are clear : mortal wounds generated from Ossefactors can generate additional mortal wounds if they kill someone (that's why Ossefactors are so hot right now). I get that some people consider this to be abusive, but frankly, 8th edition is all about who gets the best gorgonzola (and we're not winning that competition) so i don't see why we shouldn't apply the RAW.

I would 100% not interpret the Ossefactor's rules that way. If that's how you're playing it, then yes, the Ossefactor would be considerably stronger.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: is it me or are we bad at wounding?   Thu Mar 01 2018, 20:54

I won't debate or explain it here, since it's not the topic, but there's the link to the thread in which this was discussed (even though it heated up pretty quick).

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t16085-ossefactor-infinite-mortal-wounds

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PostSubject: Re: is it me or are we bad at wounding?   Sat Mar 03 2018, 18:37

So yeah, the state of splinter is a bit rough, but the way I see it you have two options - don't build around splinter, or build around too much splinter.

Personally the splinter I take is just what I need to have enough Kabs to work on contested objectives. The rest of my shooting is Darklight and Mandrakes.

I keep a list with more poison if I think I'm gonna see 'Nids or demons. In that case, some of the most points efficient and in-game effective splinter is Trueborn with 2xSC in a Venom.

Don't try to shoot MEQs in cover with splinter. That's just silly. With our weapons all being pretty good at like one thing, target priority is more important for us than most other factions. Other factions can throw weight of dice because their basic shooting is either more efficient (guardsman blob spamming S3) or effective (Bolters S4).

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