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 Reworking "What needs help" Shredder, Liquifier, Haywire, Heat lance

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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Reworking "What needs help" Shredder, Liquifier, Haywire, Heat lance   Mon Feb 26 2018, 03:19

Here are my proposed changes for my 8th edition fandex:
Haywire blaster: Keep the profile, keep the points cost, make the ability "If the target is a Vehicle, then on a roll of 2+ to wound inflict 2 Mortal wounds in addition to all other damage, and on a 6+ inflict 2 additional Mortal wounds in addition to all other damage (total of 4)."

Heat Lance: add 2 to the strength of the weapon, keep the ability, keep the points.

Shredder: Make it S3 but Assault 2d6, swap Shred for auto-hitting, merits a point increase (maybe to 13?)

Liquifier Gun: Keep the profile except that the number of shots becomes dependent on the T of the user (after buffs). Make it auto-hitting (does it do that already?). I don't know how to price it in points though.

Thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking "What needs help" Shredder, Liquifier, Haywire, Heat lance   Mon Feb 26 2018, 09:43


HWB : 10pts "If the target is a vehicle, on a roll of 2+ it suffers a mortal wound, and on a roll of 6+ it suffers 1d3 mortal wounds. If it suffers any mortal wounds, it counts until your next turn as one step more degraded on the degrading profile scale. If it doesn't have degrading profiles, it has -4" mvt, -1 to hit, and -1 A".

Heat Lance
15pts (standard pricing for melta), keep the strength, but give extra range (even +1" is enough). This weapon needs to allow scourges to deep strike in melta range.

Blaster : 15pts, Make it rapid fire 1. Otherwise their is no point in not taking a DL over it. Or price it 10pts and keep it like it is.

Liquifier Gun 13pts : 1d6 auto hit (it already is), but you can chose the profile :
- S5, AP-1
- S4, AP-2
- S3, AP-3

Shredder 5pts : assault D6 auto-hit, reroll to wound against infantry, S6.

Splinter cannons : either it goes to poisoned 3+, gains AP-1, goes to RF 4, or drops down in price.

Extras
- On a side note, the medusa weapon could really become a pistol. I don't see why a medusa couldn't use her deadly looks in melee.

- Hexrifles need to deal D3 damage, but be priced accordingly. Since you only take one per squad, they need to be "elite snipers".

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking "What needs help" Shredder, Liquifier, Haywire, Heat lance   Mon Feb 26 2018, 16:16

I like general idea of degrading on the HWB, but it's a bit clunky and it wouldn't affect vehicles that are already on their last tier. Maybe just -1 to hit in addition to any mortal wounds?

I personally think the blaster just needs a points reduction, because it's strength is its availability and portability just like in the fluff.

When I considered how best to make the Heat lance better, (indeed, how to make any weapon or unit better) I consider what role it will play in the army, and why would it be taken over other options. What makes sense the most sense to me for the heat lance is that it was constructed to be better at destroying hard targets like heavy vehicles and fortresses. That's why I gave it Strength 8 so that it could deal with things like Land Raiders. The niche the heat lance then fills is a more powerful anti-tough weapon that sacrifices range and is more costly than a Dark Lance. I also feel that increasing their range to, say 20" just so that Scourge can deep-strike and blast something is going to upset the internal balance of the army and make equipping Reavers or Taloi with HLs less optimal.

Your version of the Shredder is way under-costed, at least when compared to similar weapons. A flamer has shorter range, lower strength, and does not re-roll to wound and is almost double the points.

My solution to poisoned shooting weapons is giving them a S value that is reduced to 1 against Vehicles. A deeper discussion can be found here.

I love your idea for the Liquifier gun, my only question is what is your fluffsplanation for it.

The medusa weapon should absolutely be a pistol, hands down.

My version of the Hex rifle supes it up to S6 and Damage D6 against non-vehicle models but I felt that meant it should double in points.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking "What needs help" Shredder, Liquifier, Haywire, Heat lance   Mon Feb 26 2018, 16:40

Quote :
Your version of the Shredder is way under-costed, at least when compared to similar weapons. A flamer has shorter range, lower strength, and does not re-roll to wound and is almost double the points.

You're absolutly right, I might have been out of my mind there Wink

Quote :
I love your idea for the Liquifier gun, my only question is what is your fluffsplanation for it.
I always imagined the Liquefier gun as a machine that throws a toxic mixture... so instead of having stupid wracks that roll for random AP, you could decide wether you want your mixture to be acid-heavy (AP) or toxin-heavy (good S). You chose your dose Smile

Quote :
My version of the Hex rifle supes it up to S6 and Damage D6 against non-vehicle models but I felt that meant it should double in points.
That would be acceptable, even though i'd prefer D3 damage but some good AP (-3, like the ossefactor).

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking "What needs help" Shredder, Liquifier, Haywire, Heat lance   Mon Feb 26 2018, 19:23

@Mppqlmd wrote:

I always imagined the Liquefier gun as a machine that throws a toxic mixture... so instead of having stupid wracks that roll for random AP, you could decide wether you want your mixture to be acid-heavy (AP) or toxin-heavy (good S). You chose your dose Smile

Didn't the original liquifier just tap into the veins of the creature holding it, spraying it's toxic blood on the opponent?

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking "What needs help" Shredder, Liquifier, Haywire, Heat lance   Mon Feb 26 2018, 23:34

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
I love your idea for the Liquifier gun, my only question is what is your fluffsplanation for it.
I always imagined the Liquefier gun as a machine that throws a toxic mixture... so instead of having stupid wracks that roll for random AP, you could decide wether you want your mixture to be acid-heavy (AP) or toxin-heavy (good S). You chose your dose Smile

I love that. Switching it up from toxin to acid is definitely going to be a Stratagem in my dex.

Quote :
My version of the Hex rifle supes it up to S6 and Damage D6 against non-vehicle models but I felt that meant it should double in points.
That would be acceptable, even though i'd prefer D3 damage but some good AP (-3, like the ossefactor).

A good point. As I'm sure you've gathered by now, for me, fluff is king, and so my idea of the glass-plague delivery system hex-rifle is that the device fires what is essentially a relatively delicate syringe and so AP -1 was plenty punchy. However, another idea I had was a Stratagem that improved the AP and Damage of shooty weapons but made them Heavy if they weren't already, representing the firers aiming more carefully - but I don't know, seems a little too convenient as shouldn't Dark Eldar always be aiming their best? And would careful aim really bring them that much benefit? Still in the design process.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking "What needs help" Shredder, Liquifier, Haywire, Heat lance   Tue Feb 27 2018, 20:55

Considering we're talking about the shooting weapons that suck donkey hooves, i'd like a special mention to the Chronos special weapons. I think those are the biggest "genius concept, horrible rules" I've ever seen in 40k. They were nothing special to begin with blasts were still a thing, but now... yeeesh.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking "What needs help" Shredder, Liquifier, Haywire, Heat lance   Tue Feb 27 2018, 21:11

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Considering we're talking about the shooting weapons that suck donkey hooves, i'd like a special mention to the Chronos special weapons. I think those are the biggest "genius concept, horrible rules" I've ever seen in 40k.

Yeah, I'm kind of stumped about those as well. I really like the idea that they age their target but I didn't know how else to change them apart from making them always Damage D3 when targeting non-Vehicles. I'm starting to feel like practically every weapon in my fandex is either geared specifically towards fighting Vehicles or non-vehicles but that's kind of how the Drukhari are so I'm okay with it.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking "What needs help" Shredder, Liquifier, Haywire, Heat lance   Wed Feb 28 2018, 12:23

Heat Lance: S7, AP-4, 18", 15pts
Reasoning: At S6, the best job for this weapon is monster/character hunting which I see very little use given its short range. Against S7 and below, it would be a great portable weapon (D6 Blasters) for Scourges that you can also get in close with for some really juicy damage.

Shredder: S3, Shred, 9", Assault 1D6 (2D6 when attacking a unit of 10 or more).
I think we can all agree that it should be a flamer-like weapon and 2D6 would go a long way to mitigate our weakness to horde units. As a general observation I want to add that S6 + shred is absolutely wasted.

Liquifier gun: Just make it S4, will you GW?
Alternatively, a straight 4+ to wound would be acceptable too.

Blaster: S8, AP4, Assault 2, 15 cost
The real question is whether to make the Blaster a 7pts weapon or make it Assault 2. I chose the latter because we have little access to special wargear and it should be more than just an overpriced Plasma Gun. I am against making it a Rapid Fire weapon because that would mess with the close range domain of the Heat Lance.

Haywire Blaster: S4, 24", Assault 1. Vehicles suffer a mortal wound on a 2+. or D3 mortal wounds on a 6+.
I want a poison-like weapon against tanks which I can use as an oridinary assault weapon. Highly point efficient against tanks, as well as a reliable source of mortal wounds against vehicles.

Compared to a Lance it sacrifices range and damage output to non-vehicles for better hit chance when moving. I fear that if HWB are mainly used as a debuff weapon you will only split fire to apply the debuff to as many targets as possible but concentrated fire will be wasted.

I honestly just want a weapon that I can use on Scourges that allows me to zoom around and make shots of opportunity just like in 7th edition. Scourges with Heat Lances should be the tool to obliterate an already damaged vehicle. And DL Scourges should be deep striking long range gun platforms that are cheaper than a Ravager (but still more expensive than other options) which can DS but are also much less durable.

I would also love it if HWB and Heat Lances would become available to other units as well (HLs on Kabalites/Trueborn and HWB to Wracks).


Just my 50 cents.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking "What needs help" Shredder, Liquifier, Haywire, Heat lance   Wed Feb 28 2018, 23:28

One thing I think would help HWB is a thunderfire-esq strategem. Several armies have access to a way to half something's movement - which fits the HWB fluff.

Something like (1CP) add 1 to your hit roll. A vehicle hit by a Haywire blaster must halve it's movement, advance, and charge rolls in the next turn.



As to Heat Lances - I disagree that they should have the Melta rule and 18+ inch range. Can't think of anything that can DS into melta range. I may be wrong, but that seems stupidly powerful, especially when you can take 4 of them.

I also really like the idea of the dial-a-liquifier.

Finally - shredders. I'd like to see them stay exactly as is, but be d3 auto hitting shots per 5 models in the squad, to a max of 4d3.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking "What needs help" Shredder, Liquifier, Haywire, Heat lance   Thu Mar 01 2018, 19:52

Quote :
Compared to a Lance it sacrifices range and damage output to non-vehicles for better hit chance when moving. I fear that if HWB are mainly used as a debuff weapon you will only split fire to apply the debuff to as many targets as possible but concentrated fire will be wasted.

And that's how I imagine a murder of Scourges flying from the skies, shooting Haywire at every single piece of machinery. No destruction (yet), only disruption. Then the rest of the Kabal arrives and sets the place aflame.

IMO Haywire scourges should be, in fluff, like Orkz Kommandos. They are not there to kill, they are here to cause mayhem.


Quote :
Shredder: S3, Shred, 9", Assault 1D6 (2D6 when attacking a unit of 10 or more).
Sounds great, but no auto-hit ?

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking "What needs help" Shredder, Liquifier, Haywire, Heat lance   Fri Mar 02 2018, 17:46

I suppose the thing about Haywire Blasters warrant enough ground for its own discussion. I do see the allure of "wracking havoc" and doing more then stripping away plain hull points.

But the pragmatic side in me just wants to see a viable HWB similar to the one in 7th edition that can co-exist with the Dark Lance.

Also, yes. I forgot to give my description of Shredder auto hit.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking "What needs help" Shredder, Liquifier, Haywire, Heat lance   Thu Mar 08 2018, 18:44

I've been thinking a bit more about wargear lately and got some new ideas.

Hexrifle:
- Stats: Heavy 1, 24", S4, AP-1, D1
- Effect: Deals a mortal wound to non-vehicles on a 4+. Deals D3 mortal wounds to an enemy on a 6+.

Haywire Blasters against infantry, essentially.


Haywire Blaster:
- Stats:Assault 1, 24", S4, AP-1, D1
- Effect: Deals enemy vehicles a mortal wound on a 2+. On a 6+, roll a D6 and apply the following table:
  - 1: Half Movement next round
  - 2: -1 BS/WS next round
  - 3: -6" range next round
  - 4: +D3 Mortal Wounds
  - 5: -1SV next round
  - 6: Choose one of the above.
Effects are not cumulative, if you roll a double, re-roll one die.

I love the idea of HWB Scourges wrecking havoc with their guns on the battlefield. With this profile they become a reliable source of AT but still have a little bit extra. They are not purely gimmicky, but do more than just stripping away wounds.

I think the random part of the game should be embraced and since the effect only triggers on a 6+, you will keep the flow of the game (don't we all hate it when the turn of your enemy never seems to end?).


I also thought about some of the other bad wargear pieces:

Monstrous Cleaver: +1S Melee weapon
And suddenly Grotesques are wounding GEQ on a 2+.


Huskblade: S User, AP-2, D2, D3 Mortal Wounds to non-vehicles on a 6+
First I considered making it D6, but I thought we really lacked an HQ with good access to Mortal Wounds. The Huskblade should be a devastating weapon suited for killing multi-wounded enemies.

With D2 you want to send your Archon to send after PEQ/TEQ. The highlight is D3 mortal wounds, which is likely to happen when fighting other HQs.
Sure, it's only S3, but with 5 attacks a turn you are likely to make several wounds at least. It is upon yourself to pick the right targets.


Archite Glaive:
- Single Handed: S+1, AP-2, +2 Attacks
- Double Handed: S+2, AP-3, D2, -1 to hit
The Succubus should be a melee allrounder with a bonus against other characters. This weapon profile makes her more diverse and makes a good pick against horde and elite armies alike.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking "What needs help" Shredder, Liquifier, Haywire, Heat lance   Fri Mar 09 2018, 07:07

Problem is that GW tried to lose anything that gives bonusses or penalties for a full turn. So this kind of haywire will never happen.
Although I am unsure what to do to change it, I think either making it rapid fire/assault 2 or making the haywire really expensive, like 30 points or so: Assault 1, 24", S4, AP-1, D1 on a 6 to wound the vehicle suffers half it's remaining wounds as mortal wounds.
Let haywire be the bane of all though high wound vehicles while darklances take care of the rest/wounded ones.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking "What needs help" Shredder, Liquifier, Haywire, Heat lance   Fri Mar 09 2018, 09:17

@|Meavar wrote:
Problem is that GW tried to lose anything that gives bonusses or penalties for a full turn.

Giving us access to weapons that do this might be nice compensation for not having native access to psychic powers, though.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking "What needs help" Shredder, Liquifier, Haywire, Heat lance   Fri Mar 09 2018, 15:22

Alternatively, you could have give the Haywire weapons a "Shield overload" special rule : "When a vehicle is wounded by this weapon, any unit attacking it receives a +1 bonus to wound it. Not stackable". You'd have to fire your HWB first to debuff, then finish the job with Dark Lances.


Or you could imagine a "Total System Breakdown" rule : "Any vehicle that suffers 5 or more wounds from this weapon in a single shooting phase cannot move, shoot or attack for a full turn (2 player turns)".

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