HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityFAQUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Cheaper Reavers

Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
Gorgon
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 35
Join date : 2017-07-19

PostSubject: Cheaper Reavers   Sat Feb 17 2018, 20:18

Because Chapter Approved didn't give our units the points changes they deserve (likely because of the impending codex), I decided to try out a change that's likely going to happen anyways. I took the reavers and brought them down to match stock windriders, since they were the same cost in the index.

So in a game against shooty AdMech, I brought 21 jet bikes (2x6, 1x9) with blasters and spported them with 3 razorwings and some kabs. Overall, they weren't bad for that points value. They definitely weren't exceptional, but they destroyed the maelstrom and kept the dune crawlers and and robots away while I mopped up the infantry. I figure if they don't at least get that points decrease they'll have to be shelved, barring a fantastic stratagem or "chapter tactic" or something.
Thoughts?

Back to top Go down
RedRegicide
Wych
avatar

Posts : 668
Join date : 2016-05-20

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Sat Feb 17 2018, 21:07

What’s a stock wind rider? Also props to your opponent for being chill.

I think that they will have a role but will by no means be spammable. Altho we may see a cult tactic that buffs them enough to play an army around them

_________________
“No. Stop. Don’t go in there. You’ll all be killed,’ Motley murmured sardonically”
Back to top Go down
The Shredder
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2968
Join date : 2013-04-11

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Sat Feb 17 2018, 23:20

Unfortunately, I think Reavers have issues beyond mere cost
1) In spite of what I said, their cost doesn't seem to reflect their stats. I know they have 2 wounds now, but the loss of Jink and 5+ FNP has, if anything, made them less survivable than before. Contrast their 5+/6+++ with the 3+/4++ of Shining Spears.
2) Their weapons are all pretty bad. Cluster Caltrops have been nerfed to oblivion, Grav Talons are unreliable and weak even when they work. Heat Lances are a Joke. Blasters are the only ones that are even semi-decent, but even those are underpowered.
3) In spite of the significant cost increase and nerfing of their main weapons, they're still based on taking just 1 meaningful weapon per 3 models, with the 2 unlocky sods being stuck with a few, pathetic S3 attacks. Again, compare that to Shining Spears, where every model comes with a S6 AP-4 D2 melee weapon, which can also shoot with the same profile (albeit at a short range). This means that about 2/3 of every Reaver squad is just wasted points.

Put simply, even if you lower their cost a bit, they're still a unit that has no bite whatsoever.
Back to top Go down
Archon_91
Wych
avatar

Posts : 521
Join date : 2017-01-03

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Sat Feb 17 2018, 23:31

Don't reavers have bladevanes as a close combat profile though? Meaning their attacks are str 4 AP -1? But I suppose the arena champion can take an agonizer
Back to top Go down
Burnage
Wych
avatar

Posts : 739
Join date : 2017-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Sat Feb 17 2018, 23:37

If they were about 15 points a model I think they'd be fine.

The "only 1 in 3 models gets a special weapon" thing would still be irritating, though.
Back to top Go down
FuelDrop
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1392
Join date : 2015-06-21

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Sat Feb 17 2018, 23:58

Here's the thing: Offensively, reavers put out 1 S4 AP -1 attack per 15 points in melee, and Rapid fire 1 poison for 30 points at range. They also have 1 wound per 15 points, with a 4+, 6+++ save.

This is terrible points economy.
So, let's look at their greatest strength: Speed.

They have a whopping 16" move... which is about 2" faster than non eldar Jetbikes.

Sure, they have an 8" advance, but they can't actually do much after advancing, beyond having 1/3rd of the squad fire underpowered special weapons at a penalty.

Back to top Go down
The Shredder
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2968
Join date : 2013-04-11

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Sat Feb 17 2018, 23:59

@Archon_91 wrote:
Don't reavers have bladevanes as a close combat profile though?

You're right, I'd thought those were conditional for some reason.

Even so, S4 AP-1 D1 vs. S6 AP-4 D2...
Back to top Go down
FuelDrop
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1392
Join date : 2015-06-21

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Sun Feb 18 2018, 00:00

I did make some suggestions here: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t16829-reavers-reborn
Back to top Go down
Mppqlmd
Incubi
avatar

Posts : 1844
Join date : 2017-07-05

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Sun Feb 18 2018, 17:39

Bladevanes are a decent weapon. Reavers are just damaged by the curse of the useless equipment.

In my opinion, the quality of the codex will resume to this : have they fixed Shredder, HL, HWB, SCannon ? The majority of our problems come from the fact that our Arsenal sucks donkey hooves.

_________________
My Kabal
Back to top Go down
lament.config
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 447
Join date : 2015-04-20

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Sun Feb 18 2018, 19:59

It would be nice if cluster clatrops or grav-talons did mortal wounds on a flyover. Similar to screamers but, maybe on a better chance than 6+.
Back to top Go down
FuelDrop
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1392
Join date : 2015-06-21

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Mon Feb 19 2018, 00:11

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Bladevanes are a decent weapon. Reavers are just damaged by the curse of the useless equipment.

In my opinion, the quality of the codex will resume to this : have they fixed Shredder, HL, HWB, SCannon ? The majority of our problems come from the fact that our Arsenal sucks donkey hooves.

Agreed, there is nothing wrong with blade Vanes. It's just... they're not good enough for the attack/point ratio on reaver jetbikes.

For an offensive, Melee heavy unit, we either need more attacks or stronger attacks.
I suggest upping them to 3 attacks base, fight twice on the charge. that brings us to 1 attack for 10 points, 1 attack for 5 points on the charge. That still puts them below Khorn Beserkers (who are putting out 1 S5 attack per 2.66 points with Chainswords) but if we have boosted maneuverability, charge after advancing and hit and run, then we are talking at least a passable combatant.

To be clear: 3 times the attacks on the charge would make them about half as cost effective for attacks as Khorne Berserkers.
Back to top Go down
Gorgon
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 35
Join date : 2017-07-19

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Mon Feb 19 2018, 00:23

By stock windriders I meant just the twin shuriken catapult.
I think it being maelstrom is what worked for me. In that game, one unit of 6 essentially only fought a squad of 5 sicarian infiltrators, and won, and grabbed backfield objectives. Besides that the other units denied objectives, shot some troops, and locked a character in combat so that I could daisy chain the big squad forward without getting shot.
Also I played the long deployment that's pointed (forget the name), and went first, and advanced turn one. The admech player moved forward and if it wasn't for that I wouldn't had made it to combat turn two, and shooty kastellans would've wrecked them.
I did like the bladevanes and I don't think they need to be changed. If they made the splinter rifle twinned and made all twin shuriken catapults assault 4 on bikes and vehicles, they'd be much better, and would be mainly be used against things like orks, decent toughness low save.


Last edited by Gorgon on Mon Feb 19 2018, 00:24; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarity)
Back to top Go down
PFI
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 199
Join date : 2017-02-12

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Mon Feb 19 2018, 01:53

wouldn't expect the splinter rifles to become twin linked since the model itself just has one. What you will probably see is a point decrease and maybe even an extra movement to the advance or move 18. Hopefully changes to the caltrops, grav talons and the special weapons.
Back to top Go down
FuelDrop
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1392
Join date : 2015-06-21

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Mon Feb 19 2018, 02:00

Interesting question:
What role do you see Reavers play in an army? Melee or ranged? Shock cav or...

Personally, I kinda see them as flank harassment, mostly melee in nature due to their poor ranged firepower. The blasters are somewhat helpful at boosting that, but not really enough to make them a ranged unit.
Back to top Go down
Gorgon
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 35
Join date : 2017-07-19

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Mon Feb 19 2018, 02:12

I see them as flank harassment for sure, but with a large squad with a toughness boost should be a decent speartip/screen for the rest of the army to close the gap, ie wyches in venoms and raiders, beasts (ideally, not with current rules. I like wych cults in theory).

The way the bladevanes work, or should work, they should be used to rip up a few GEQs after a round of shooting. Not necessarily wiping the unit but limiting their effectiveness, making them fall back, and then jetting forward to hit another squishy target that can't punch back much. I think they do that fairly well but not efficiently. Then again I put 21 bikes on the board, any more and I'd be running low on room to maneouver.
Back to top Go down
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
avatar

Posts : 7226
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Mon Feb 19 2018, 07:02

@FuelDrop wrote:
Interesting question:
What role do you see Reavers play in an army?

Dust gatherers...

_________________

You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
aurynn
Incubi


Posts : 1626
Join date : 2013-04-23

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Mon Feb 19 2018, 08:01

I don't use them that much myself (maybe 20% of the time), but when I do, I am actually fine with them. I use them to grab VPs. They are not bad, but they need support. Or use them to dig SM out of cover where shooting is hitting the 2+ wall save. They perform best for me with MV drug, no blasters, just caltrops. They have their hard counters as do all bikes, but they are actually good at tactical play. Standalone, offense-wise, most ppl see them as dust gathereres. I see them as the unit that either scores or allows me to score a VP or three each game. But then again they do require you to step away from "I need to kill everything" mindset to "I can win this game by different means", which can be tough. All that being said, against current top lists, they ARE bad. But well... I don't play that level, nor do I even try. :-) I hate to be limited to BIS units.

And yea... they need a price drop. Not to 15pts ofc, as that would be silly, but they ned some.
Back to top Go down
The Shredder
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2968
Join date : 2013-04-11

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Mon Feb 19 2018, 08:58

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
Interesting question:
What role do you see Reavers play in an army?

Dust gatherers...

Damn you, Count! Now all I can think of is Reavers with their Bladevanes replaced by forward-facing vacuum cleaners. Suspect
Back to top Go down
Dark Elf Dave
Wych
avatar

Posts : 508
Join date : 2017-05-19

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Mon Feb 19 2018, 10:52

@The Shredder wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
Interesting question:
What role do you see Reavers play in an army?

Dust gatherers...

Damn you, Count! Now all I can think of is Reavers with their Bladevanes replaced by forward-facing vacuum cleaners. Suspect

LOL bringing fear and despair to all patrol dogs in the 40k universe!
Back to top Go down
Burnage
Wych
avatar

Posts : 739
Join date : 2017-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Mon Feb 19 2018, 11:06

@aurynn wrote:
And yea... they need a price drop. Not to 15pts ofc, as that would be silly, but they ned some.

It seems low but it's not that outrageous - most armies' bikes, without weapons, are roughly twice the cost of their standard troop choices. E.g., a Space Marine bike is 27 when a standard Marine is 13, an Eldar Windrider is 18 when a Defender is 8 points, a Custodes bike is 80 points when a normal Custodes guy is 40.

Bonus movement, +1T and +1W is - in almost all other cases - priced at 2x the unit's standard value. That our bikes are four times as much as a Kabalite is a very noticeable outlier.
Back to top Go down
aurynn
Incubi


Posts : 1626
Join date : 2013-04-23

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Mon Feb 19 2018, 11:56

@Burnage wrote:
@aurynn wrote:
And yea... they need a price drop. Not to 15pts ofc, as that would be silly, but they ned some.

It seems low but it's not that outrageous - most armies' bikes, without weapons, are roughly twice the cost of their standard troop choices. E.g., a Space Marine bike is 27 when a standard Marine is 13, an Eldar Windrider is 18 when a Defender is 8 points, a Custodes bike is 80 points when a normal Custodes guy is 40.

Bonus movement, +1T and +1W is - in almost all other cases - priced at 2x the unit's standard value. That our bikes are four times as much as a Kabalite is a very noticeable outlier.
I do not think that formula for pricing the units should be based on basic troop cost, since there is disparity between armies already due to various reasons. Also our bikers have the option to DS for example. Should that be reflected in cost? How about Drugs? How about them being quite multirole compared to CWE bikes? If they will drop to 20 points, I will be a VERY happy camper.
Back to top Go down
|Meavar
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1041
Join date : 2017-01-26

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Mon Feb 19 2018, 12:38

But 20 is roughly double the price is it not (9 for a wych, 20 for a wych on a bike?)
15 is quite a bit less then double the cost (of course if wyches become priced around 7 then the price of 15 does not sound as bad suddenly). Also take into account that our bikers are different from other bikers in that our ranged damage is not double that of a normal trouper but our melee has a bonus str and ap -1.
Back to top Go down
Ikol
Wych
avatar

Posts : 564
Join date : 2017-03-20
Location : Perth

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Mon Feb 19 2018, 15:13

@|Meavar wrote:
But 20 is roughly double the price is it not (9 for a wych, 20 for a wych on a bike?)
15 is quite a bit less then double the cost (of course if wyches become priced around 7 then the price of 15 does not sound as bad suddenly). Also take into account that our bikers are different from other bikers in that our ranged damage is not double that of a normal trouper but our melee has a bonus str and ap -1.

The cost of our Reavers ability to deepstrike is either a) 1 command point if there is only one unit doing it, or b) three if there is a second unit joining them for the ride.

If they get deep striking as a unit ability, e.g. Scourges, Terminators, Mandrakes, etc, THEN you include that in the unit cost.  If you start pricing models for the Stratagems available to them -Stratagems that have a separate costing system - then you are double charging us.

If you also consider that the number of Command Points you have available is proportionate (at least somewhat) to the points cost of the minimum units in a detachment, then you are triple charging us.

/rant

20 points + the ability to Advance-Charge would be perfectly reasonable to my eye.

_________________
This world exists because of the things we have done, forever branching to the decisions we make and twisting to what we do not.

”Woe to our enemies.  We'll tear them apart regardless.” ~Barrywise
Back to top Go down
|Meavar
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1041
Join date : 2017-01-26

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Mon Feb 19 2018, 17:54

I never mentioned deep strike :S
Back to top Go down
aurynn
Incubi


Posts : 1626
Join date : 2013-04-23

PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   Mon Feb 19 2018, 18:10

@|Meavar wrote:
I never mentioned deep strike :S
I did and on purpose. But I understand why Ikol wants to discount it. I believe ALL the options the model/unit has should be calculated in the price somehow. Example - Dark Reapers. Standalone models are fine. Problem arises when you have the option to take 10 of them in one unit AND have an option to buff them AND have the option to take them as Ynnari and, and... and suddenly people start shouting they are underpriced. :-)
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Cheaper Reavers   

Back to top Go down
 
Cheaper Reavers
Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

GENERAL DRUKHARI DISCUSSION

 :: Drukhari Discussion
-
Jump to: