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 Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 01:06

@Burnage wrote:
I can indeed imagine Genestealers in our army and they're considerably better than any of our native units even without synergy from other Tyranid units.


Well, it's not what I was meaning for. Of course they should be, Genos should be broken in our army.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 06:25

Cerve - I love the enthusiasm for some of the more maligned items in our Index. I suspect you might be overly optimistic on a few fronts though.

@Cerve wrote:
PS: Sslyths+Archon probably are the best melee "unit" in the index.
That especially caught my attention. From my analysis of the points efficiency of our options, Sslyth and an Archon are OK, but there are much better options in terms of melee damage output ahead of them (against Guardsmen for example, Archon and Sslyth do 4.40 wounds per 100 points compared to Khymerae doing 8.89 wounds per 100 points).

What is your rationale for picking Sslyth as such a strong unit?

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 07:39

@FuelDrop wrote:
@aurynn wrote:
@Mppqlmd
Well I just love how anything below ETC and ITC is considered "less serious". :-D We will have a GT tournament in a few weeks with international attendance. Noobs, casuals, fluffers, and of course even WAACs... Not serious enough? :-D I am telling you that with melee DE list you wouldn't end last. I am pretty sure that it'd be even top half...

As someone who has played a full Wych cult vs a Korne army, this is true... if your opponent makes severe tactical mistakes and flubs every roll.

You know what the hard counter to Wyches is?
Having a flamer.

One flamer can overwatch that venom-load of bloodbrides into toast with even a modicum of good luck (or bad luck).

You know what else will kill Wyches?

Pistols. Like the ones carried by literally every Space Marine.

You know what Wyches struggle to deal with? T4, 3+ armour.

Like seriously? You ever charge wyches without having a transport or even a ravager to soak up overwatch? You ever charge anything without doing the same? I dont care what shooting kills wyches. They get shot at only and only if they miss the charge, which is a possibility, but also one I have to account for. Like charging in the said vehicles into everything so very little stuff can shoot at them. Want to play melee? NEVER charge only one unit into things.

I do play wyches and I swear I just dont get hit by overwatch. Allowing that is bad play. Period. Honestly I did start fielding melee armies on purpose, because I was soooo bad at playing them. As I started to understand the mechanic, I started to appreciate how good it is and how unprepared most armies are to face it.

Tandem is the keyword here. One big hitter and one or two small footprint support units, one of which can be a transport of the big hitter, or 3 bikes, or unit of Scourges, 5 warriors, whatever.
I will say again what I said before, staying in CC is quite good for us.

Wyches struggle with T4 3+? like where? With either S drug or A drug with Agoni, Blast Pistol, Poison Pistols, and 3 hydra gauntlets its... over 8 dead marines? They walz over any 5-man squad, possibly even through DG squad and get comfortably stuck in CC on any 10-man squad. AND you can't think in points effectiveness only. Think in tactical effectiveness...


Last edited by aurynn on Tue Feb 20 2018, 08:58; edited 1 time in total
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Pain Engine
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 08:13

@aurynn wrote:
Wyches struggle with T4 3+? like where? With either S drug or A drug with Agoni, Blast Pistol, Poison Pistols, and 3 hydra gauntlets its... over 8 dead marines? They walz over any 5-man squad, possibly even through DG squad and get comfortably stuck in CC on any 10-man squad. AND you can't think in points effectiveness only. Think in tactical effectivenes...

With that setup I get just over 5 dead marines, assuming all wyches hit on 2+. This is after making it into melee, but yes, that's ok damage. Problem is what they sacrifice for this damage output.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 08:57

Sorry, I play 20 wyches from webway. Should have mentioned that. :-)
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 09:03

@aurynn wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
@aurynn wrote:
@Mppqlmd
Well I just love how anything below ETC and ITC is considered "less serious". :-D We will have a GT tournament in a few weeks with international attendance. Noobs, casuals, fluffers, and of course even WAACs... Not serious enough? :-D I am telling you that with melee DE list you wouldn't end last. I am pretty sure that it'd be even top half...

As someone who has played a full Wych cult vs a Korne army, this is true... if your opponent makes severe tactical mistakes and flubs every roll.

You know what the hard counter to Wyches is?
Having a flamer.

One flamer can overwatch that venom-load of bloodbrides into toast with even a modicum of good luck (or bad luck).

You know what else will kill Wyches?

Pistols. Like the ones carried by literally every Space Marine.

You know what Wyches struggle to deal with? T4, 3+ armour.

Like seriously? You ever charge wyches without having a transport or even a ravager to soak up overwatch? You ever charge anything without doing the same? I dont care what shooting kills wyches. They get shot at only and only if they miss the charge, which is a possibility, but also one I have to account for. Like charging in the said vehicles into everything so very little stuff can shoot at them. Want to play melee? NEVER charge only one unit into things.

I do play wyches and I swear I just dont get hit by overwatch. Allowing that is bad play. Period. Honestly I did start fielding melee armies on purpose, because I was soooo bad at playing them. As I started to understand the mechanic, I started to appreciate how good it is and how unprepared most armies are to face it.

Tandem is the keyword here. One big hitter and one or two small footprint support units, one of which can be a transport of the big hitter, or 3 bikes, or unit of Scourges, 5 warriors, whatever.
I will say again what I said before, staying in CC is quite good for us.

Wyches struggle with T4 3+? like where? With either S drug or A drug with Agoni, Blast Pistol, Poison Pistols, and 3 hydra gauntlets its... over 8 dead marines? They walz over any 5-man squad, possibly even through DG squad and get comfortably stuck in CC on any 10-man squad. AND you can't think in points effectiveness only. Think in tactical effectivenes...

No dark eldar transport has ever been blown up ever!
No Wych squad has ever been WWP'd to the battlefield!

Wyches are terrible objective holders. They are vulnerable to ranged attack even in cover, and cannot effectively deal their low damage output without moving off the objective.

Wyches are expensive screening units, and once again die to ranged attack far too easily. That 5-man squad of marines? give them a flamer and give sarge a combi flamer and they will kill 6+ wyches with shooting and then charge to kill another 1-2 in melee. That's almost a squad wipe from a 5 man squad worth noticeably less points. Even more if they throw a grenade.

Or they just sit there and wait for you to wipe the rest of the squad out vs 2-flamer overwatch.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 09:05

@aurynn wrote:
Sorry, I play 20 wyches from webway. Should have mentioned that. :-)

I'm beginning to wonder if there's a difference in the amount of terrain that some of us are playing on.

In my experience, on boards with relatively little amount of cover or line of sight blocking, the "typical" lists that you see posted on here do very well. When the entire board is covered in heavy terrain, though, then footslogging seems like it'd be relatively more effective.

For example; on a board with no terrain, deepstriking 20 wyches is very likely to just give up first blood from an enemy "free shot on deep striking units" stratagem. On a board with lots of terrain, it'd be easy to just pop them out of sight or into protection.
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Pain Engine
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 09:08

@aurynn wrote:
Sorry, I play 20 wyches from webway. Should have mentioned that. :-)

Then how do you soak up overwatch? Do you send ravagers into their backline? Do you sacrifice a squad just so another can make it in? This was originally part of what you were answering, and now you are invalidating you own answer. Also, deepstriking a blob just screws them over even more as they will either die in droves or annihilate their targets only to die in droves to shooting the following turn.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 09:15

@Pain Engine wrote:
@aurynn wrote:
Sorry, I play 20 wyches from webway. Should have mentioned that. :-)

Then how do you soak up overwatch? Do you send ravagers into their backline? Do you sacrifice a squad just so another can make it in? This was originally part of what you were answering, and now you are invalidating you own answer. Also, deepstriking a blob just screws them over even more as they will either die in droves or annihilate their targets only to die in droves to shooting the following turn.

Same thing as mentioned above, charge trough a rune which blocks line of sight but infantry can phase trough nowadays. thus no overwatch.

(must admit I also rarely find this a possibility since I also do not have so many large los blocking pieces on the table).
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Keast Kannegaard
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 10:18

Well while i dont play v super hardcore tourney list, and in general dont do tournements, the 20 wyches in DS is really good. 20 poison shots, and 60 attacks, with possible with rerolls of 1s... Should be enough deal with anything you REALLY need to get killed, like objective holders. And i gladly sac. 200 points, if that means something else and more important lives.
The only real problem with that strategy is most tournements dont go past turn 3, and that's really the biggest problem with PfP.

Someone mentioned "but if they just have flamers, they are dead"... Well most flamers got range 8"... you cant DS withing the flamer range... so they cant be hit in overwatch by the flamers... and grenades? arent most of those not range 6"? same crap as flamers then! (Unless this got FAQed ofc)
But even then... why charge the WORST possible unit instead of the BEST possible unit?
Especially when you DS with them and YOU can pick the fight you want and not your opponent?
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 10:46

@FuelDrop - yes, they are terrible objective holders. DE dont HOLD objectives, they GRAB them. :-) There is a great tactical difference to that.

We use little to no LOS blockers with few exceptions. Some tables have one big piece, some have none at all. Most ruins have windows and with the current rules I typically can maybe hide two vehicles if any. But I do for example provoke the enemy to move with his heavy weapons to get a shot and get a shot on a Venom only if possible. -2 to hit FTW. Its a combination of mind game during deployment and ranges and such.

I typically have 5+ vehicles and scourges and Archon or whatever will survive the overwatch. I will gladly sacrifice my Shadowfield save or few Scourges so the Incubi/Wyches will bite in and beat the living... pain... from stuff. Any AT I have becomes largely irrelevant T3+ so pfff... let the Scourges die.

@Pain Engine - exactly. I do not leave anything in the backfield. 2 reasons. I need to bring the opponent's backline DSers as close to main battle as possible so I can charge them with anything I have spare since they are usually shooty. And Ravager from T3 is usually smoking or only good for overwatch soak or unneeded just as the Scourges.

There is no universal rule as to where to DS and how and what to sacrifice. It can go to hell ofc, but thats why you have redundancies, failsafes in terms of charging EVERYTHING possible if it is not absolutely stupid at the particular situation ofc. If I sacrifice say 5 scourges so his 2 units cannot shoot, or his unit cannot disembark or whatever tactical option you have at the point, it is worth it. You need to realize the gains vs. losses. And its not about what YOU can kill or what YOU will lose. Its mostly in what he CANNOT kill due to your actions. Making the enemy impotent while you play away the mission is IMO one of the best tactical decisions you can make.

@Burnage - My enemies always get first blood. I am fine with that. And I do DS the melee stuff on T3, not T2 if I can help it, which I 90% can. You cannot dance at all the weddings. Sacrifice one, get more back.

Free shot DSing units - yea that CAN be a problem. Thats why I DS T3. My opponents either dont have that many CP left by T3 OR they will burn their last, not having enough CP for interrupting attacking of my chargers. Which is same or worse.

Don't take me wrong, there are matchups (both units and armies) that are very uphill for us, no matter the configuration, however any and all units comparisons based on killyness per point or efficiency, does not come even close to battlefield reality or their real effectiveness in missions beyond "kill everything". Trust me, I know, I have spent quite some mathhammering.
I made this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hzv7ndstav38chj/8ed_Offence_v3.xlsx?dl=0
Works with LibreOffice or GoogleDocs.

There may be wrong values input in wyches currently, so check and correct as you like. Brief manual is on the first sheet.

EDIT: One more thing - that table compares killyness per point against variety of targets, accounting for different loadouts. But those numbers are FAR from what you can actually do with the units... Easy example - if you look into that table, you will arrive at the conclusion, that Wyches are better point-for-point than Brides. Only they aren't, because the table does not account for concentration of power, higher power-per-footprint of Brides, etc.


Last edited by aurynn on Tue Feb 20 2018, 10:54; edited 1 time in total
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 10:53

It feels like this argument is boiling down to "Have you considered outplaying your opponent to make up for having an objectively weaker army?"

Which, while fair in its own way, doesn't really change the actual strength of the army that you're using.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 10:55

You mean like Vietnam besting USA? They did have weaker "firepower". They apparently were not "weaker". :-)

EDIT: but in all seriousness, that is what makes us a finesse army. We are not Glass Cannon. I missed the 5th edition so for me we never were. Always a finesse army I am trying to figure out through 3 editions already and I never did regret it. It taught me so much especially in this particular regard. Numbers are not all the strength.
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Pain Engine
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 12:48

I agree with Burnage. What is written here could be applied to a stronger army and net better results. Also, the "loss" in Vietnam wasn't because the US was outsmarted, it was pretty much purely political.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 15:00

Wow the discussion heaten up!!! Okay there are two sides of the medal.
Im a fan of mathhammering...
I tried to understand your worksheet @aurynn but did not understand it. Is it possible to explain it deeper?

Thanks to all. I will try a different melee army setups in my next games and try to monitor the results...

Thanks allot to all!
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 16:04

Nah, no heat. Its just discussion. I think all was already said, now we are beginning to argue semantics, which is not necessary.

Different approaches take time to learn properly and no, I don't think I could have the same results with CWE and don't have that much firsthand experience with other armies. I mean actually trying to play them as I do DE. I focussed on DE and DE alone. Maybe Harlies to some degree.

@Mumakil - you can PM me if you have questions regarding the table.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 16:25

@Burnage wrote:
It feels like this argument is boiling down to "Have you considered outplaying your opponent to make up for having an objectively weaker army?"

This.

Wyches are a half-assed, poorly designed unit.

- Their special rule "No escape" doesn't work against the targets that it's supposed to work against (T'au jump suits), and it works 50% of the time when it applies.

- 4+ inv in cc ? Great. Doesn't work against pistols ? You can dodge a demonic whip but not a pistol bullet ? What is this, the Matrix ?

- A unit with less S, less attacks, less T and even less mobility (on the charge anyway) than an Ork Boy, but that for some reason costs a lot more.

They don't pack enough punch for their cost, because we're paying a ton for 2 special rules that can't be relied on to create a solid strategy.

Honestly ? Make "No escape" an auto-pass and give the 4++ against pistol fire, and i'd be happy with wyches. They wouldn't be killers, but they would be a cool little nuisance.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 16:53

Well I might be in minority, but ability to outplay the opponent is, IMO, part of the army strength. And we strayed far from the topic. I guess I wanted to say, that yes, melee army is possible IMO. Even on tourneys. Maybe not on top LVO level, but you won't embarrass yourself if played correctly. :-D
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 18:04

Don't compare 2 units from different Codex....the inner balance is a thing. Orks Boyz cost 6 points because of the entire balance in the Codex (Index). Genestealers cost 13 points because they need way more points around to get them useful (swarmlord, psichic powers, venomthropes etc).
If, for example, we should have Genestealers in our army, they will cost way more than 13 points. Because we will be able to embark them, that's all. Not other 300+ point around them to work, just 95 points of Venom, or 115 for a Raider.
They should be broken.
I never compare units between Codex, the calculation of the point cost is way more complicated than a simple add of statistcs and rules.
But that's a game design argumentation, I'm oot.

Anyway yes, a melee army is possible wjth DE. A FULLY melee army is not.
But no CC fully army works today.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 19:14

@Cerve wrote:
Don't compare 2 units from different Codex....the inner balance is a thing. Orks Boyz cost 6 points because of the entire balance in the Codex (Index). Genestealers cost 13 points because they need way more points around to get them useful (swarmlord, psichic powers, venomthropes etc).
If, for example, we should have Genestealers in our army, they will cost way more than 13 points. Because we will be able to embark them, that's all. Not other 300+ point around them to work, just 95 points of Venom, or 115 for a Raider.
They should be broken.
I never compare units between Codex, the calculation of the point cost is way more complicated than a simple add of statistcs and rules.
But that's a game design argumentation, I'm oot.

Anyway yes, a melee army is possible wjth DE. A FULLY melee army is not.
But no CC fully army works today.

Can't agree more.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Tue Feb 20 2018, 19:24

There is a very large middle ground between declaring that units across lists with the same statline should always be the same price and saying that we can't compare them at all.

Genestealers are actually the perfect example of this, because they do have a different cost across the two lists that they appear in. Why? Because being part of a Cult army lets them quite easily get a first turn charge, and that's clearly very powerful. But that's also something that we, as players, can recognise, and it's not impossible for us to compare Cult Genestealers and Tyranid Genestealers.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Wed Feb 21 2018, 02:31

In the Cult they still have pro and cons that balance the cost of 13 points. In the Cult they still missing any transport, lose all the support from Tyr but gains the alpha strike which is..good but not so good. They becomes a ball lightning, where the Tyr can manage them way better.
But immagine a Genestealer unit into a Venom, or Raider...for 13 pojnts.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Wed Feb 21 2018, 06:41

What I think is that the price of the unit with the same stats and abilities should not recieve a large increase in price. Units that support them (like our transports) should bear the price increase when neccesary.
Also remember that the genestealers would suddenly not be immune to morale anymore. Certain turn 1 charges would not be possible anymore, they would lose rerolls to hit,
The issue is that the genestealer itself should not cost more, the transport maybe should.
On the other hand, a certain turn 1 charge and immunity to morale and the support of a large monster for 300 or alternatively 20 genestealers in 230 pts of boats but in smaller units so no turn 1 charges, no bonus attacks for large units and problems with morale does not sound so stupid to me. It changes from 1 super expansive deathstar that is nearly impossible to stop to an bunch of smaller protected units that get some protection before they are fighting. yes our boats are a lot cheaper, they also scale better since you can have multiple.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Wed Feb 21 2018, 08:55

@Cerve wrote:
In the Cult they still have pro and cons  that balance the cost of 13 points.

They're 15 points in Cults.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible   Wed Feb 21 2018, 10:40

15? I thought there was an Errata for it. Oh well..
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