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 WWYD- design a dark eldar unit

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Fri Feb 09 2018, 22:47

What? He can use more than 2, you can use 1 per turn? What rule says he can only use 2?

He is a scalple that has a tool arsenal for many purposes, need to charge a tank turn 1? you can, need to threaten a weak character like a Spiritseer? you can, need to move to a far away objective? you can.

He isnt really there for damage.

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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Fri Feb 09 2018, 22:54

@amishprn86 wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
Not worse than Marbo

Marbo is actually extremely good, i mean, auto take good, players not using him i think are F[beep] retarded.  His grenade is infinite range, turn 1 deploy and throw grenade, turn 2 go into DS, turn 3 DS to finish off character. Or just keep throwing Grenades all game from 120" range lol. He can even DS+Move+charge if you wanted too tie something up like a tank.  For 65pts he is their best HQIG, I'm adding him to my SOB and Custodes just b.c he is insanely useful, he has so many options for what you need.
Rules are here http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/WhatsApp-Image-2017-12-26-at-06.38.40-1.jpg


I did a vehicle, but if i would be a character or unit. Then i want what has always been wanted and HQ's on Skyboard/Wings/Bike

I was talking about the pain it brings being called "Marbo" and on his design.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Fri Feb 09 2018, 22:55

lol, yeah but it is 40k, everything is a joke to a certain point, gotta have ridiculous names in there bounce

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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Fri Feb 09 2018, 23:01

@amishprn86 wrote:
What? He can use more than 2, you can use 1 per turn? What rule says he can only use 2?

He only gets to use them on the turn in which he arrives from reserve.

He can start in reserve (first use), and then once per game he can return to reserve (second use).

@amishprn86 wrote:
He is a scalple that has a tool arsenal for many purposes, need to charge a tank turn 1? you can

You can, but you're not going to do anything to it and he's dead in their turn. And that's assuming the enemy has no screening units.

Maybe it will be worth it but it seems a dicey investment.

@amishprn86 wrote:
need to threaten a weak character like a Spiritseer? you can

Sorry, I'm just not buying this one. His odds of even hitting a character are far too low, especially considering how little damage he does. He's just not viable as a character-assassin, even for the weakest characters.

@amishprn86 wrote:
need to move to a far away objective? you can.

Sure, but I don't think IG are short of objective-grabbers to begin with.

@amishprn86 wrote:
He isnt really there for damage.

Well, if one of his uses is threatening characters, then he is there for damage (at least some of the time).


I get what you're saying, but I think you're giving him too much credit. The idea of a toolbox character is fine, but Marbo really isn't good enough at any of his potential roles to excel as one.

Don't get me wrong - he's still pretty good. I just don't think he's good enough to be considered an auto-take.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Fri Feb 09 2018, 23:04

Hmm you're the first i've seen play him he can only do them on DSing. Its a period separating the rules. Like when you start a new sentence a period isnt necessarily working with the old sentence.

I'll send it to GW so when they fully release him they will have a faq.

PS: You can threaten characters and still kill them, i mean you dont use him as ONLY for damage, he is there for many purposes. Ranges are a great example, it will keep DSing away and threaten characters, they might not kill them, but you can force them to hide and stay in a bad position for them and a good one for you. Multi-purpose cheap units are amazing.

But if GW says in a FAQ he can only use via DS, then yes, he isnt very good. But i've not seen anyone play him that way.

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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Sat Feb 10 2018, 00:09

@amishprn86 wrote:
Hmm you're the first i've seen play him he can only do them on DSing. Its a period separating the rules. Like when you start a new sentence a period isnt necessarily working with the old sentence.

Except that it's in his Ambush rules, rather than being a stand-alone rule. In addition, the sentence begins "Sly Marbo can then do one of the following..."

The 'then' indicates that he is using that effect after deploying in that manner.


@amishprn86 wrote:
I'll send it to GW so when they fully release him they will have a faq.

Sure.

@amishprn86 wrote:
PS: You can threaten characters and still kill them, i mean you dont use him as ONLY for damage, he is there for many purposes.

It's not that he can't kill them, it's that he can't kill them reliably. Killing a Company Commander about once every 13-14 games (once every 5 games if you use CPs to reroll two dice) just doesn't cut it for me.

I'd be less bothered if he didn't still need a 4+ just to hit a normal squad.

@amishprn86 wrote:
Ranges are a great example, it will keep DSing away and threaten characters, they might not kill them, but you can force them to hide and stay in a bad position for them and a good one for you. Multi-purpose cheap units are amazing.

If you're using his explosives every turn, then I can definitely see why you'd rate him higher.

@amishprn86 wrote:
But if GW says in a FAQ he can only use via DS, then yes, he isnt very good. But i've not seen anyone play him that way.

Interesting. I never considered the possibility that it could be played otherwise.

To be honest, I still can't see any other way of reading it. You're only given the option of using the explosives after Marbo arrives from reserves. I don't see how you can trigger it on a turn when he hasn't arrived from reserve.


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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Sat Feb 10 2018, 00:12

If he cant use it every turn then i agree with you. I did 40kfaq's them, hopefully when he is release him in April or March or w/e they said they will have a faq for him.

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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Sat Feb 10 2018, 00:34

A mandrake style heavy unit would be really interesting even more so if it could infiltrate and bonus if it provides a debuff or buff. It should have the -1 to hit rule too.


A coven LoW would peak my interest.

It needs to be fast enough to keep up or close to the rest of the forces. Movement 12 might be enough better if it is 14. If it has the keyword <FLY> without huge wings I'd appreciate it. It would also be nice if it provides a buff and a debuff.

The buff could up inured to pain saves to a 5+ and the debuff could be a -1 to manifesting psychic powers maybe doing D3 damage on failed tests. 9 inches on the buff, 12 or 18 on the debuff.

In combat it should be able to make 6 or more attacks doing flat 2 or 3 damage at a -2 or more minis to armor.

Speaking of armor. A 3+/4++ and a 6+ inured (modified by it's aura) of course. T7 would be great. If that could be modified by a haemonculus it might be to strong but, if it only has 14 wounds I don't think it would be to much for the way 8th can kill large targets.

Lastly, it look vaguely like a Keeper of Secrets (as a mockery of Slaanesh and a disdain for the possibility of a final death). Four arms with two being massive scissorhands and the other two could be similar to flesh gauntlets. The face should be like a Talos mask. It should be bigger than a Talos but, not daemon primarch size. Hive tyrant size (not including the huge ass wings).
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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Sat Feb 10 2018, 05:35

Vindi that's a good point. If anything, the Dark Eldar would use some sort of plot to get their enemies to fight one another, before they move in for the kill, past the weakened defenses and take all the booty. Twisted Evil

That being said, the idea about some sort of army wide aura/buff would be nice right? Why not, as previously mentioned, have a Slave Pen/Raider for Wych Cult. Name it...Marauder or something. Picks up prisoners or uses current one's agonies to either buff nearby Drukhari, or debuffs enemy morale.

Kabal can have a torture rack, similar to grisly trophies.

The Coven version could be a mobile Haemonculus lab. Maybe even restitch up some wracks or Grots on the field while we're at it.


Otherwise, it's pretty difficult a new Dark Eldar unit without looking at other subservient races. We have elites for all 3 troop choices. we have guys that drop from the skies. guys that go zoom. Guys that pop out of shadows. Guys that go pew pew. We have all the tools we need, just not all of them are very effective in this new edition is the problem.

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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Sat Feb 10 2018, 09:27

@Barrywise wrote:
Vindi that's a good point. If anything, the Dark Eldar would use some sort of plot to get their enemies to fight one another, before they move in for the kill, past the weakened defenses and take all the booty.  Twisted Evil

I can't claim credit for this idea, but I saw a chap suggest the idea of DE rifles that do no damage but let you control a unit for a turn.

Possibly you could immediately make ranged attacks using the units, or have the unit resolve a Fight Phase against itself. Something along those lines.
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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Sat Feb 10 2018, 09:37

Oh. A way to let them fight themselves would help with hordes too. Like every model does one auto hit with its base strength. Some new phantasm grenade launcher engine matinee maybe.
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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Sat Feb 10 2018, 09:52

A few months ago I suggested a grenade laucher that said "At the end of the moral phase, each model removed as Moral casualty firsts makes a shooting attack against any target at range, DE player choses".

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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Sat Feb 10 2018, 17:48

Hoh, now that's an idea. Didn't the phantasm Grenade launchers used to have random effects?

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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Sat Feb 10 2018, 23:38

I remember suggesting something like the Frenzy grenade, which was basically a phantasm grenade but instead of leadership penalties every hit caused the target unit to make one attack against itself.

Now there was talk about an assassin type character earlier in the thread and I agree, we need one and a Dark Eldar assassin is very fluffy.
However:
He should not be a character duelist. That is what the Succubus is all about.
He should not be a sniper. Snipers, on the whole, don't do much damage in this edition. Not enough for one guy with a rifle to be a viable investment, barring a super-rifle.

So what should he be?

I would suggest an alpha strike monster. Bring back the decapitator. Appears within 1" of the enemy, charges, makes 6 attacks that hit on 2's and do mortal wounds on 6's, with an aura that grants himself and fellow mandrakes  +1 to wound. Special rule that Mandrakes can deep strike within 6" of him even if that's within 9" of the enemy.

He appears from your own shadow with a few squads of minions and they hit like a ton of bricks, tearing through their targets... then they vanish again and reappear where you least expect them.

I mean I would love to have a generic Mandrake Lord that can do something similar, since having generic assassin characters is a very Dark Eldar thing to do...
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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Sat Feb 10 2018, 23:54

Quote :
He should not be a sniper. Snipers, on the whole, don't do much damage in this edition. Not enough for one guy with a rifle to be a viable investment, barring a super-rifle.

I can't recall an edition in which snipers played a more crucial role than 8th edition... it's not about the damage, it's about the fact that FINALLY they figured out how to target someone important more than 17% of the time.

Not having access to a good sniper source is part of why we struggle against hordes.

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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Sun Feb 11 2018, 00:05

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
He should not be a sniper. Snipers, on the whole, don't do much damage in this edition. Not enough for one guy with a rifle to be a viable investment, barring a super-rifle.

I can't recall an edition in which snipers played a more crucial role than 8th edition... it's not about the damage, it's about the fact that FINALLY they figured out how to target someone important more than 17% of the time.

Not having access to a good sniper source is part of why we struggle against hordes.

Valid point. But unless we get someone who can do 3-6 wounds per shot, a single sniper isn't going to do anything meaningful.

Give wracks squads the ability to take Hexrifles squadwide, or make Mandrakes able to Baleblast characters.
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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Sun Feb 11 2018, 00:19

@FuelDrop wrote:

Now there was talk about an assassin type character earlier in the thread and I agree, we need one and a Dark Eldar assassin is very fluffy.
However:
He should not be a character duelist. That is what the Succubus is all about.

I assume you're referring to fluff here, because the Succubus is currently about as effective in a character-duel as an egg roll. Neutral

@FuelDrop wrote:

He should not be a sniper. Snipers, on the whole, don't do much damage in this edition. Not enough for one guy with a rifle to be a viable investment, barring a super-rifle.

In fairness, I think this is more an issue with the weapon - not with snipers in general.

GW basically decided that every sniper bar the Vindicare should use the exact same weapon, regardless of how much they cost, how many can take the weapon etc.

@FuelDrop wrote:

I would suggest an alpha strike monster. Bring back the decapitator.

If you want an alpha strike monster, then you most certainly don't want the Decapitator. Certainly not his last incarnation, anyway.  Razz

@FuelDrop wrote:
Appears within 1" of the enemy, charges, makes 6 attacks that hit on 2's and do mortal wounds on 6's, with an aura that grants himself and fellow mandrakes  +1 to wound. Special rule that Mandrakes can deep strike within 6" of him even if that's within 9" of the enemy.

That could indeed be nice. Perhaps he could also have a rule that lets him shoot his Baleblast at characters, even if they're not the closest unit.

The thing is though, I don't see why this needs to be a special character. Since there's no model either way, why not just have him be a generic Mandrake HQ?

@FuelDrop wrote:

He appears from your own shadow with a few squads of minions and they hit like a ton of bricks, tearing through their targets... then they vanish again and reappear where you least expect them.

Is the latter going to be a special rule? If not, I see them mysteriously vanishing... in the wake of a Basilisk shell. Wink

But yeah, letting the Mandrake HQ teleport around the battlefield would be nice.

@FuelDrop wrote:

I mean I would love to have a generic Mandrake Lord that can do something similar, since having generic assassin characters is a very Dark Eldar thing to do...

Well, it could be quite customisable. If it has an aura of +1 to wound or reroll failed wounds for Mandrakes, then it could also be used as a more ranged-support character. Maybe it could pick from some Mandrake powers that let it specialise in particular roles? e.g. it could pick two of these:
- Extra Arms (give extra attacks and help you make a pseudo-Decapitator)
- Wings (Extra movement and Fly)
- Some sort of battlefield-teleportation
- Ability to deep-strike within 2" of an enemy character (and other mandrakes can deep strike next to it, as you describe above).
- Improved Baleblast (maybe extra shots and/or strength)
- Vampiric (Each time the Mandrake causes a Mortal Wound, it heals one wound)

That sort of idea, anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Sun Feb 11 2018, 00:26

Fun thought:

Mandrakes can, at the start of each turn, redeploy outside of 9" of the enemy instead of moving.

THAT is an awesome concept. Make their HQ be able to do the same thing, and oh man will we be able to strike from the shadows.
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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Sun Feb 11 2018, 09:55

Some great ideas already in the thread.

The oubliettes of the Haemonculi must have some twisted creations thus far not released unto realspace. Engaging the fluff brain...

The Meat Devil is a culmination of horrendously failed Grotesque experiments. They'll have multiple torsos, limbs, pyramid heads like the original Talos and have negative leadership aura. I'm thinking something Riptide-ish in size.

I think that Kabalites need a mobile artillery piece that can be fired from raiders or venoms, similar to a doomweaver. More AI is required. Call it the Lastphase trap.

Psychic nulls such as the Aelindrachi Ecliptos emanate an atmosphere of life-sapping negativity, preventing any warp tampering elements from stirring into ignition. Ecliptos thirst for life to feed their souls. These guys are our Culuxes and can be attached to Courts. They become rabid for psyker souls in particular with shadow shifting abilities allowing them to faze out of reality and form.

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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Sun Feb 11 2018, 10:12

Everytime i look at the Pain Engines, i wonder : why is there a Chronos, but no Uranos ?

I would love to see a Tempest Engine, equiped with shield generators and huge haywire cannons.

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PostSubject: Re: WWYD- design a dark eldar unit   Sun Feb 11 2018, 12:40

@Mppqlmd wrote:
I would love to see a Tempest Engine, equiped with shield generators and huge haywire cannons.


A forcefield generating Pain Engine WOULD be awesome....
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