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 Fighting at the end of the fight phase.

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PostSubject: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Tue Feb 06 2018, 12:00

Certain armies (at least tzaanzgors and tyranids) have a stratagem that allows them to fight an extra time at the end of the fight phase.
I think this also allows them to consiludate and pile in an additional time (since it does not say make attacks, but really fight and it all falls under the fight heading in the rulebook).

Now the question since this is done at the end of the fight phase if the tyranids contact a new unit, can the imperial guard still fight?
A) they can since a unit is within 1 inch of the imperial guard and they have not fought yet.
B) they can't because the tyranid unit fighting was the last action in the fight phase since it was done at the end of the fight phase?


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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Tue Feb 06 2018, 12:07

It would be helpful to have the actual wording of the stratagems in question to see if they provide any useful information.

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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Tue Feb 06 2018, 13:24

I assume this is ADRENALINE SURGE.
"Use this Stratagem at the end of the Fight phase. Select a TYRANIDS unit from your army – that unit can immediately fight again."

When you Fight, you perform the full Fight Phase process.
Choose a Unit (as part of the Strategem), Pile In, Choose Targets, Choose Weapons, Resolve Attacks, Consolidate.
The complete process.

A) This is any area that has not been clarified by GW, as it does bring someone else within 1". My feeling is NO, because I would think the end of the Fight Phase is after all units that can be activated have been. This happens at the very end, and nothing comes after (unless the army you are fighting ALSO has a Strategem which does the same thing).
This however can be unclear, and worth throwing at the FAQ people.

B) Of course it CAN be the unit which fought last. The end comes after all units that can fight have fought. Even if it was the last unit that fought, theres no restriction on the rule of Strategem which says it can't be then.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Tue Feb 06 2018, 15:06

Suddenly hormagaunts became a lot better in tying units up in melee. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Tue Feb 06 2018, 19:52

My instinct is yes, the Imperial Guard should get to fight if a new unit was contacted.

You could interpret it either way as you suggest, either:
1) The Stratagem creates a mini-fight phase for the Tyranid unit only because every other eligible unit has been activated.
2) The Stratagem creates a mini-fight phase including the Tyranid unit and any new unit that has been made eligible by their activation.

I lean toward option 2, as in an ambiguous case, I think special rules should be less powerful.

If you go with option 1, presumably you would also accept the following case:
1) Tyranid player charges a unit into a single Guard unit that has two other units already engaged with it.
2) Tyranid player activates charging unit first, then the Guard player, who has used all their eligible units.
3) Tyranid player then activates one of the already in combat units and engages a new unit
4) Therefore, the Guard player can't activate that unit because they had already completed all the activations on their side.

That doesn't seem right to me, but is essentially the same case as the Stratagem.

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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Tue Feb 06 2018, 22:13

Q: If a unit piles in or consolidates into
a unit it didn’t declare a charge against
in the preceding Charge phase, does that
unit get to fire Overwatch?
A: No.
Remember though that units that charged can
only make close combat attacks against units
that they declared the charge against, even if
pile-in moves, etc. bring them within 1" of a
different unit.



The tyranid just can fight against a units he has already contacted. The stratagem give him a new Fight phase, no a new charge phase.

Pile-in is not a charge, so you can't never fight agains a unit you make contact in that way, and then can't fire overwatch.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Wed Feb 07 2018, 03:41

True, but the question is can the unit they pile into / consolidate into make attacks if we are at the end of the fight phase and all their units have been activated.

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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Wed Feb 07 2018, 05:48

Hormagaunts charge guard unit A. Unit A is at 6 inches and another unit (B) is at 12 inches.
You roll 6 on the charge and kill 6 guard.
Guard unit A fights back.
No other units are within 1 inch so the fight phase would end.
You use the stratagem to fight with the hormagaunts again.
You kill the remaining 4 guard in unit A.
You consolidate 6 inch into guard unit B.
Can unit B fight?

Or same scenario but now you charge both A and B thus the stratagem allows you to fight B even if you did not contact them initially. If you can finish unit A in one fight phase or get enough models closer to unit B during the first consolidate move to pile in unit B with the stratagem.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Wed Feb 07 2018, 07:00

You can argue that because it's "at the end of the fight phase" that the stratagem does not allow any further fighting beyond it.

The other argument is, since the Hormogaunt unit has consolidated into Unit B, Unit B can now be activated to fight in the fight phase and thus, it is not the end of the fight phase since there is still a unit eligible to be activated.

At that point, you'd have to determine whether or not a player must activate a unit in CC. To which, the FAQ's seem to imply that yes, if possible, each unit, and model in said unit, must fight.

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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Wed Feb 07 2018, 13:38

The rulebook says:
"Afertar all charging units have fought, the players alernate choosing elegible unitos to fihgt with (starting with the player shose turn it is) until all elegible units on both sides have fought one each. No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase."

If we asume that the end of the fight phase is produced when there is not more elegible units to fight, i think that IG unit cannot fight, because you already have determinated that these unit is a not elegible unit to fight. If not were of this way, the end of the fight pase shouldn't be when the tyranid unit fight, at least is how I interpret it.

Someone remember if there is some FAQ about what happens when both players have a stratagem that have efect at same time? Who fight first if both have these stratagem?  If i'm not wrong, on 7th edition in these kind of situations the player on the active turn could choose what happens first.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Thu Feb 08 2018, 06:39

@Rodi Sikni wrote:

Someone remember if there is some FAQ about what happens when both players have a stratagem that have efect at same time? Who fight first if both have these stratagem?  If i'm not wrong, on 7th edition in these kind of situations the player on the active turn could choose what happens first.

Same in 8th (sequencing part at the left side of one of the pages)
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Fri Feb 09 2018, 05:03

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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Fri Feb 09 2018, 07:21

Didnt read it all but, from the rules and faqs.

You get to preform the full phase again (Pile in and Consolidate) this has been answered many times and faq'ed

If you "charged" that turn, you can only EVER fight what you declared a charged against for the rest of that turn, as these are the charge rules. So any turn you didnt charge you may attack anything (even if you can pile into combat with an unengage unit, you can fight it)

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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Fri Feb 09 2018, 08:11

@Faitherun wrote:


https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf


I think the trouble is that we're getting hung on the phrase "end of the fight phase", and whether or not that means that all other fighting MUST have ended.

THe above is all well and good during the standard fight phase, but whether or not the Strategem's specific use of the phrase "end of the fight phase" means anything is the problem.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Fri Feb 09 2018, 09:03

I'd have to say that nothing in the stratagem would allow the opponent to fight back. The stratagem is only triggered at the end of the Fight phase and only allows the targeted unit to fight again. That unit goes through the 6 stages in the Fight Sequence and unless the opponent has a similar ability then the Fight phase is over and the opposing unit cannot be selected to fight.

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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Thu Feb 15 2018, 16:07

The entire problem I think we're having is trying to determine what the "end phase" means in this situation.

GW did a good job of describing the phases overall's purpose and the steps involved in the main fight phase, but beyond that they haven't elaborated on the closer intricacies.

Dunno how many of y'all have played Magic the Gathering, but because of their use of "instant" cards (played at literally any time), the Wizards of the Coast have had to make very clear how phases go and the proper order for everything. In tournament settings you're literally supposed to say to your opponent, "At the end of your upkeep phase, I'm going to cast this instant spell"  as they end their upkeep phase, so that they know exactly when you're playing your card and that it's not at the start of the next phase instead.

To get back on topic. I believe that there are SUPPOSED to be 3 main phases for the Fight Phase. The start, main and end phases. Start phase is simply to determine which units are eligible to fight. Main phase is detailed by GW, and the end phase is normally there to use for stratagems and the like. kinda like one last chance to use your "instant" spells. However, Rules as Written, (RAW) I don't think that GW has properly explained this idea yet and as such from the FAQ screenshot previously posted, a unit that is consolidated into will then become eligible to fight. Because any unit that is eligible to fight must fight, then that unit gets to take a free swing at your unit.

The way I see the Rules as Intended (RAI). You're supposed to pile in, you don't get to attack because you didn't declare charge, unless you had really good foresight and they were within 12" of your initial charge. The enemy then has the option during their turn to either have the unit fall back, or stand and fight. In a 1unit vs. 1unit situation, either your opponent gets to swing at you first, or they attempt to run away and you catch them really easily the next turn, unless they pile into a transport or something. Either way, it's more to your advantage in most cases, as it should be. Action -> Reaction.

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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Fri Feb 16 2018, 07:22

The problem is that the "Start phase is simply to determine which units are eligible to fight. " as you suggest is not there. Units that were within 1 of a unit and are not later do not get to fight unless they charged and units wich later in the fight phase (because of pile in consiludate) now have enemies within 1 inch do get to fight.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Fri Feb 16 2018, 09:02

If we allow the opposing unit to fight back there are two problems. Firstly, the stratagem is only playable at the end of the fight phase. If the opponent then gets to activate another unit then it wasn't the end of the fight phase, so you couldn't have played the stratagem, which means it was the end of the fight phase so you could have played it etc, etc. Secondly, you're effectively giving your opponent the same stratagem that you've just used without him having to pay any CPs, albeit he doesn't get to choose the unit that can fight.

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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Fri Feb 16 2018, 15:05

No Youre not. You got a unit to fight twice. He didn't. If you used this strtagem to attack a unit that had already fought it wouldnt be able to attack.
I'd play it that the new, now eligible to participate unit gets a go. Or more accurately whatever is left gets a go.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Fri Feb 16 2018, 22:35

then he's not using the stratagem at the end of the fight phase. The other player not have any turn to choose a unit, so he can't strike back.

To me the FaQ that Faitherum quotes clarify the answer.

@Faitherun wrote:


https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf


the unit can "be chosen to fight when it is your turm to choose a unit"

The stratagem must be used when all the elegible units has been chosen, so there is not more turns to choose a unit to any player.

If I use a stratagem like that before the other player has choosen all his units to fight, i'm sure that he's going to tell me that these is not the end of the fight phase because he still have units to choose to fight, so there's no sense that after i use it he says that he still have a turn to choose other unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Sat Feb 17 2018, 09:49

Alright. Here’s another way to look at it. How does this FAQ work in terms of the Ynnari? Their Soul-Burst thing can allow them to fight in psychic, shooting and fight phase right? (Not morale though?)

Does their ability work the exact same as the Stratagem? Or does it depend on which phase ypu’re in?

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PostSubject: Re: Fighting at the end of the fight phase.   Sat Feb 17 2018, 11:57

Ynnari acts the same, its still a Phase you are activating, the stratagem still activated the full phases. Fighting isnt the only part of the fight, Pile in and Consolidate are parts of it now.

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