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 Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Mon Feb 05 2018, 10:19

My local club's Ynnari player has told me, and I thought I'd check with you, that "Tony" - who won the Las Vega Open - in fact played his army wrong, and was playing Strength From Death improperly.

Specifically this line:
"Each time a unit is completely destroyed within 7" of one or more units with this ability, except
in the Morale phase, pick one of those units to make a Soulburst action."


The FAQ for Xenos1 does not alter this sentence, only the one after it.

"That unit can immediately do one of the following, even if it has already done so in this turn (if the unit was destroyed as the result of a unit’s action – e.g. making a shooting attack or fighting – the Soulburst action is resolved after the unit has completely resolved its current action, e.g. after it has completed all of its shooting attacks or after it has finished fighting, including making any consolidation moves):"

So, as "Tony" played it, he used it an action he could activate at any time. If he had a unit of Dark Reapers for example, and a unit within 7" died, he would choose not to Soulburst, and wait for something else to die later and activate that unit then with a Soulburst.

As my club's player says however, the above rule does not give an option. When something dies within 7", you PICK a unit. No choice. No "may" in there, meaning one unit within 7" of a unit that dies MUST SOulburst, and the choice comes from which of the available options you then use.

(And this besides the other drama which apparently went on at LVO)

Your thoughts?
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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Mon Feb 05 2018, 10:45

You are forced to pick a unit but not to carry out the soulburst action (That unit can immediately do one of the following...). Can, not must.

EDIT - Mod hat on. Moved to rules forum - Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Mon Feb 05 2018, 11:14

Apologies, I somehow thought I WAS in the rule forum!


THe rule says though, that you pick a unit TO MAKE A SOULBURST.
The unit Soulbursts, and it then has a choice of which action to make.

I guess the distinction to make is that once a unit makes a Soulburst, having been chosen at this point, it can not make a Soulburst later.

So if a unit, say some Dark Reapers, are the only ones with 7" when something dies, they must Soulburst, and can not therefore Soulburst later.
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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Mon Feb 05 2018, 12:18

I still see picking the unit as the mandatory action. They can then perform one of the actions listed but are not forced to. If they don't carry out a Soulburst action then they are free to do so later in the turn.

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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Mon Feb 05 2018, 12:46

As I'm reading, you are picking a unit to make a Soulburst action.
From that point, they are making a Soulburst action, and you get to choose what kind of action they make.
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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Mon Feb 05 2018, 12:59

The count is correct. You pick a unit, but that unit is not forced to take an action.
the word "can" is self explanatory.

You pick a unit to make a soulburst action.
that unit CAN make an action.

You cannot force the unit to make one when the very next sentence says you do not have to.

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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Mon Feb 05 2018, 13:37

The trouble is where it says the word action.

You pick a unit TO MAKE A SOULBURST ACTION.

You then pick ONE OF THE FOLLOWING. Not one of the following ACTIONS.

You are picking for the purpose of a Soulburst Action. There is absolutely no point to the picking of a unit if they are not making a Soulburst Action.

Otherwise what you're suggesting is that the rules say that when a unit dies, an Ynnari unit within 7" is selected......to do nothing. You MUST select a unit, but then nothing happens?
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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Mon Feb 05 2018, 14:36

The wording for that part of SfD is pretty much unchanged since it was initially released in Gathering Storm about a year ago. During that time I've never seen anyone play it the way your club's Ynnari guy says it should be played. I've not heard of any tournaments running it that way and I've seen games on Warhammer TV, FLG etc that have played it the way I am suggesting (although I'm the first to admit that we shouldn't take that as gospel as there have been occasions when these have turned out to be wrong).

I just don't see that Soulbursting is mandatory, especially now that it's limited to one of each type of action and only on your turn. It would make it all but worthless.

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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Mon Feb 05 2018, 16:11

The only exception for "may" that i've found is for Close Combat. I forget exactly where it was, maybe in an FAQ or something, but I remember reading someone asking whether it was possible to just not attack an enemy in CC so that they could surround and then be locked in combat with a single enemy model and thus be safe during the enemy shooting phase.

GW said something along the lines of no, each model must make all of its attacks if able in the fight phase. That being said, you have control of where and with what weapon those attacks are made with... (maybe use hand slaps of incubi so they don't murder everything to stay in CC?)

Otherwise, for movement phase, etc. I can make a movement, I move 0 inches. extra movement finished.

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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Mon Feb 05 2018, 16:29

When the rule was created, you could trigger as many soulburst you wanted. It was not a problem. Then, they nerfed FAQ'ed soulburst to only allow 1 per phase. I don't see any problem in choosing which unit will soulburst. The rule already suck, now.
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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Mon Feb 05 2018, 19:16

@Skulnbonz wrote:
The count is correct. You pick a unit, but that unit is not forced to take an action.
the word "can" is self explanatory.

You pick a unit to make a soulburst action.
that unit CAN make an action.

You cannot force the unit to make one when the very next sentence says you do not have to.

‘That unit can immediately do one of the following,
even if it has already done so in this turn"

I think this is a wonky wording problem on GW's part, only because I believe it they intended for the unit to simply be eligible to do a Soulburst action whenever they wanted to they would've set up a mechanic where you either pick and declare the type of action that they would be able to perform later, or simply mark them with a "Soulburst token" of some kind to be spent later in your turn as you saw fit.

Ynnari are really in an edition limbo where they don't seem to know how to address them with Strategems and such. I'd be interested to see where they would rule on this if asked point blank. I've always performed the action immediately, doesn't mean that it's the right way of course.

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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Mon Feb 05 2018, 20:40

I'm a little confused by the question, and how things were done at the LVO. Were they choosing not to carry out a possible Soulburst action (seems reasonable based on the limitations of once per phase), or were they storing up a Soulburst use for later in the turn (not reasonable based on requirement of using immediately)?

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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Mon Feb 05 2018, 22:54

‘That unit can immediately do one of the following,
even if it has already done so in this turn (if the unit
was destroyed as the result of a unit’s action – e.g.
making a shooting attack or fighting – the Soulburst
action is resolved after the unit has completely resolved
its current action, e.g. after it has completed all of
its shooting attacks or after it has finished fighting,
including making any consolidation moves):


You can, not must (So if you wanted to shoot with a different unit 2x, you dont have to have the 1st eligible unit use up the SB action to waste it on a bad unit)

But i dont see how he "held" that soulburst till later it says you "can immediately" meaning.. you literally have to do it now (well after you finish the unit that started, you dont get to SB in the middle of a unit shooting, you must finish that unit 1st, then you can SB)

I didnt watch the final game, but yes he played it incorrectly.

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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Mon Feb 05 2018, 23:05

I believe that OP was saying that when any unit dies within 7" of a Ynnari unit with the soulburst special rule, that the Ynnari unit is obligated to soulburst.

Instead of this. The Ynnari player had several units die within 7" and after seeing which units died, and which didn't, then chose to soulburst on the final units death. Contrary to his friend's interpretation of the rules.

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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Mon Feb 05 2018, 23:20

@Barrywise wrote:
I believe that OP was saying that when any unit dies within 7" of a Ynnari unit with the soulburst special rule, that the Ynnari unit is obligated to soulburst.

Instead of this. The Ynnari player had several units die within 7" and after seeing which units died, and which didn't, then chose to soulburst on the final units death. Contrary to his friend's interpretation of the rules.

I didnt see LVO, he might have had 1 unit shooting (Dark Reapers lets say) at 2 different units. In this case he could kill both those 2 units, and he could get 2 SB actions.

In that senario, he is suppose to resolve that units shooting attacks, then once that happens he could SB now, but he can choose to SB 2x now. If someone that saw it, or knows where it was on the video let us know. B.c LVO player might not have cheated at all.

BUT with that said, as a rules interpretation. You can not "hold" the action until later, you must use it immediately.

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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Tue Feb 06 2018, 01:54

Tony didn't win LVO just as an FYI - Nick did.

I have always taken soulburst as being completed immediately. Pick a unit within 7" and do a thing. I don't see any way of holding the action till later. You don't HAVE to soulburst even if you are in range to do so but if you chose to then it's resolved straight away IMO

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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Tue Feb 06 2018, 10:50

@Kantalla wrote:
I'm a little confused by the question, and how things were done at the LVO. Were they choosing not to carry out a possible Soulburst action (seems reasonable based on the limitations of once per phase), or were they storing up a Soulburst use for later in the turn (not reasonable based on requirement of using immediately)?

My replies on this topic assume the former. If the latter then they definitely did it wrong.

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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Tue Feb 06 2018, 13:13

@Massaen wrote:
Tony didn't win LVO just as an FYI - Nick did.

I have always taken soulburst as being completed immediately. Pick a unit within 7" and do a thing. I don't see any way of holding the action till later. You don't HAVE to soulburst even if you are in range to do so but if you chose to then it's resolved straight away IMO


It wasn't that he was holding it till later.

An enemy unit died, and within 7" was an Ynnari unit.
As my friend thinks (not just him actually) this means the Ynnari unit was obligated to Soulburst, but when a unit dies you pick an Ynnari unit within 7" to perform a Soulburst Action. You then CAN choose from a list.

However, as it played at LVO and has been argued by others here, being within 7" does NOT obligate you to Soulburst. You can instead not Soulburst.
Then, if another unit dies within 7" of the same Ynnari unit, you can choose to Soulburst based on THAT unit death instead.

I hate to say it, but I think some of the responses are a little too hung up on what the rules USED to say as opposed to what they NOW say. I'm not meaning to naysay of anything, but as currently written, it really does sound to my ears that my friend may be right. That when a unit dies, an Ynnari unit within 7" MUST be chosen to Soulburst. The only option is then which of the actions from the list you perform.
Something dies, you pick a unit within 7" to Soulburst. THAT part of the rule does NOT say "CAN".
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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Tue Feb 06 2018, 13:41

If I was getting rid of my power from pain to get soulburst, I would like to at least decide when to trigger it.
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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Tue Feb 06 2018, 14:31

@Squidmaster wrote:

Your thoughts?

@squidmaster wrote:
I hate to say it, but I think some of the responses are a little too hung up on what the rules USED to say as opposed to what they NOW say.

People can only give their thoughts (or opinions) which many have done.
You asked for them. they gave them. You are not willing to accept them.

I do not think no matter how much you continue to explain your stance, you will convert anyone. It is just a disagreement of the rules. It happens.

Any time I play with or against Yannari, i will play them that way, and i cannot ever forsee a TO ruling otherwise.

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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Tue Feb 06 2018, 15:29

This is an interesting discussion, so thought I'd throw my hat into the ring.

So, going by the current rule - in full - sentence by sentence as I understand its implications.

"Each time a unit is completely destroyed within 7" of one or more units with this ability, except in the Morale phase, pick one of those units to make a Soulburst action."

So, this is where the main point of contention lies.  As I read it, if there exists one or more eligible units, you must select a unit to make a Soulburst action.

"That unit can immediately do one of the following, even if it has already done so in this turn..."

This is the first point at which the player is given direct agency over the ability.

(if the unit was destroyed as the result of a unit’s action – e.g. making a shooting attack or fighting – the Soulburst action is resolved after the unit has completely resolved its current action, e.g. after it has completed all of its shooting attacks or after it has finished fighting, including making any consolidation moves):

A clarification irrelevant to our question.

The unit can move as if it were your Movement phase.  It can Advance or Fall Back as part of this move.

The unit can, if it is a PSYKER, immediately attempt to manifest a single psychic power as if it were the Psychic phase.

The unit can shoot as if it were your Shooting phase, even if it Advanced or Fell Back this turn.

The unit can charge as if it were the Charge phase, even if it Advanced or Fell Back this turn (enemy units can fire Overwatch as normal). A unit cannot do this if it is within 1" of an enemy unit.

The unit can fight as if it were the Fight phase.

Note that this means that a unit may be able to shoot or fight twice
in the same turn.


Irrelevant.

A unit can only make a Soulburst action once per turn.

Another point of contention.

Matched Play: If you are playing a matched play game, a unit from your army cannot make a Soulburst action if a friendly unit has already made the same Soulburst action during your turn. In addition, units from your army cannot perform any Soulburst actions during your opponent’s turn.

Irrelevant to our question, but highly annoying if the interpretations of Squidmaster and his club happen to be correct.


So, this leaves us with three things to consider.

First, do you have to pick a unit?  I think we all agree that yes, a unit must be selected.

Second, what counts as "making a Soulburst action"?  Is it merely the act of being picked, or does the unit actually have to do something in order for it to count as having made a Soulburst action this turn.

Third, tautologically, if a unit was picked to make an action but elected not to do anything, can it Soulburst if something else is slain within 7" of it.

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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Tue Feb 06 2018, 15:38

@Ikol wrote:
So, this leaves us with three things to consider.

First, do you have to pick a unit?  I think we all agree that yes, a unit must be selected.

Agreed

Quote :
Second, what counts as "making a Soulburst action"?  Is it merely the act of being picked, or does the unit actually have to do something in order for it to count as having made a Soulburst action this turn.

IMHO you are not actually required to do anything other than pick a unit to make a soulburst action. Once you've picked your unit you've done what you need to do. If you were required to actually perform the action the next sentence would need to read "That unit must immediately do one of the following..."

Quote :
Third, tautologically, if a unit was picked to make an action but elected not to do anything, can it Soulburst if something else is slain within 7" of it.

I don't see that they're prevented from doing anything as a friendly unit has not already made the same Soulburst action during your turn. They've just been picked to do so.

The real clincher for me though is that nobody at any of the top tournaments or within GW itself (who are also in attendance at most of those tournaments and are in close touch with the organisers) has ever given any sort of hint that soulburst actions are mandatory. If they were, then maybe the SfD ability wouldn't have been kicked in the gonads so hard and so frequently by GW.

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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Tue Feb 06 2018, 15:41

4- If a unit is picked for a soulburt and make the action to "do nothing", another unit can't choose "do nothing", because it has already been used. BUT, it allows you to use another unit for a soulburst in that phase.
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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Tue Feb 06 2018, 16:25

I RaW tent to agree with squadmaster in this.

You pick a unit that is soulbursting. Thus the unit cannot do another soulburst later on in the turn.
You do have the option not to do anything with the soulburst action (since you can, but don't have to pick from the list).
You can get stop the game, since you are allowed not to pick an action, but you cannot pick not doing anything, thus you will have to wait forever since you must do something but you are allowed not to pick something from the list. XD


Then again I am with Count Adhemar.
Going with how playtesters and GW overseers during high end tournaments seem to rule it: RaI you do not have to.

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PostSubject: Re: Did the winner of LVO play Ynnari wrong?   Tue Feb 06 2018, 18:35

I still dont agree, if you didnt pick an "action" you didnt make a soulburst move. It says in the rules and in the FAQ for SFD that you cant do the same Action and it has a List of actions that you can do (Not doing anything isn't an action)

Edit: Made it easier to read (I hope).

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