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 Why aren't more people rolling up with Medusae in their venoms?

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DingWop
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PostSubject: Why aren't more people rolling up with Medusae in their venoms?   Wed Jan 31 2018, 20:28

I've recently dropped the blasterborn in venoms in favor of kablite squads with one blaster. This seems to be the consensus way to fill up our troop requirements.

However in addition to the new standard of Kablites with a single blaster in venoms, it seems like one or two medusae packed venom(s) are extremely point efficient.

kablites x5 blaster x1 in venom = 130pts (1 blaster, 4 splinter rifle)
trueborn x5 blaster x4 in venom = 195pts (4 blaster, 1 splinter rifle)
medusae x4 in venom = 164pts (16 eyeburst shots)

Pros for medusae in a venom:
-can help fill elite slots or can be outside of detachment slots as part of the court
-as a character can hide behind archon or other units
-leaves space for archon to ride into battle
-I like the idea of getting some value out of the court option provided by the archon HQ tax.

Cons:
-9" range
-need to use command point reroll on 1's exiting destroyed venom
-models are sold individually for about $16 each

Why are so few competitive lists not taking medusae with their arcons? Is it too hard to get into 9" if the venom is popped turn 1? Other than the range, the eyeburst seems too point efficient to pass up.

What am I missing here?
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Why aren't more people rolling up with Medusae in their venoms?   Thu Feb 01 2018, 01:35

I'd suspect that it's a combination of people not yet adapting to Chapter Approved and extremely competitive players moving to Alaitoc over an Index list.

Personally, the range is a killer for me. 9 inches away from the enemy in a fragile transport leaves you very vulnerable to having that transport surrounded, then blown up and having all the models inside automatically die because there are no legal places to put them.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Why aren't more people rolling up with Medusae in their venoms?   Thu Feb 01 2018, 10:18

Medusae are very good. When combined with the Archon's aura the combined Archon + 4 Medusae is an efficient option, rather than a tax.

They can footslog reasonably well as all being characters they are harder to target. You also can't benefit from the aura if they are in a transport, so you are likely to need to jump out when you attack if you did go with a transport option.

If you are worried about losing them to a transport crash, go with a Raider with Archon, Court and 5 Kabalites.

While we are an Index list, I am preferring a Craftworld HQ to the Archon, but I expect Medusae to feature post Codex release.

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AlCorps
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PostSubject: Re: Why aren't more people rolling up with Medusae in their venoms?   Thu Feb 01 2018, 15:07

Last weekend I ran 12 of them in 3 venoms. (along with 3 archons, 5 ravagers, and 3 planes)
In the right matchup they were lethal. The Venom could just about get them into range without disembarking, and the volume of good AP shots destroys MeQ units.

However, the short range really hampers them too much. Some units just could not be reached, leaving me with a turn or two without shooting them.
They are a bit of a gimmick unit. Once they had a good turn of shooting, opponents knew to stay away, or to kill them asap.
Also, invulnerable saves and FnP rules (eg plaguebearers) blunt the damage output. These armies were quite common, so the medusae didn't really feel like they were hitting as hard as they should.

Keeping 1 venom full of them to handle a stray marine unit might be good, but mandrakes or warrior blobs are probably more useful overall
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DingWop
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PostSubject: Re: Why aren't more people rolling up with Medusae in their venoms?   Thu Feb 01 2018, 15:44

Thanks for the game report. Sounds like the mandrakes will be a safer way to round out a competitive list.

However at the moment I'm stuck running two archons as HQ's, so for fun matches I may try one court venom with Archon+blaster/agonizer, Archon+relic pistol/agonizer, sslyth x1, medusae x2. Or maybe just let them walk and/or be a back line defense.
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Tzelok
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PostSubject: Re: Why aren't more people rolling up with Medusae in their venoms?   Thu Feb 01 2018, 20:27

I actually have been running two of the exact unit you’re talking about in my tourney list. They are great for murdering MEQ, GEQ, and even light vehicles.

The tournament is ITC so objectives really matter, with this loadout I can run a venom up to remote objectives and either drop the Archon or a medusae which can be useful.

I will often speed them over to help where the mandrakes have dropped in. The whole list is below:

Archon - agonizer, parasites kiss
Archon - agonizer, PGL, blaster

8x Medusae
2x venoms (twin linked splinter rifles)
2x 7 Mandrakes
2x5 scourges (DL)
3x ravagers
3x Voidravens

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DingWop
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PostSubject: Re: Why aren't more people rolling up with Medusae in their venoms?   Thu Feb 01 2018, 22:13

Tzelok,

Have you had issues with running the venom into 9" range and then loosing everything when the venom is surrounded, destroyed, and there is no room to exit the venom? That is currently my biggest fear in running them. Do you think it is worth the venom if you have to have them jump out early to avoid being surrounded and to get the re-roll misses bonus?

Footslogging them might not be too bad as I don't mind if my archon is targeted, having the shadowfield tank fire rather than more fragile units seems ok. But then those points may not get in range soon enough to effect the game.

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Why aren't more people rolling up with Medusae in their venoms?   Fri Feb 02 2018, 01:02

4 Medusae in a venom with an Archon seems decently effective. Keep them near the backlines for when something deepstrikes near you and just go to town.

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PostSubject: Re: Why aren't more people rolling up with Medusae in their venoms?   Fri Feb 02 2018, 06:58

@Burnage wrote:
I'd suspect that it's a combination of people not yet adapting to Chapter Approved and extremely competitive players moving to Alaitoc over an Index list.

Alaitoc is the best cheese I've had in a long time Smile
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Tzelok
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PostSubject: Re: Why aren't more people rolling up with Medusae in their venoms?   Fri Feb 02 2018, 09:01

@DingWop wrote:
Tzelok,

Have you had issues with running the venom into 9" range and then loosing everything when the venom is surrounded, destroyed, and there is no room to exit the venom?  That is currently my biggest fear in running them.  Do you think it is worth the venom if you have to have them jump out early to avoid being surrounded and to get the re-roll misses bonus?  

Footslogging them might not be too bad as I don't mind if my archon is targeted, having the shadowfield tank fire rather than more fragile units seems ok.  But then those points may not get in range soon enough to effect the game.


It is a threat you need to be aware of, but you can mitigate it . If I'm worried about it happening I will jump them out of the venom and lead with the Archon to tank any shots (the 2++ can be amazing, and if he dies I barely care). Honestly with the rerolls they can do a tremendous amount of damage, not much has been still standing after in my anecdotal experience. Also the two will tag team larger targets, especially if they are isolated but important.

As Barrywise pointed out they make great deep strike insurance, and can advance far enough to get them back in the game where you need them at decisive moments.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Why aren't more people rolling up with Medusae in their venoms?   Sat Feb 03 2018, 01:22

If they were 10" and they could be taken in units. I would used them in an Heartbeat.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Why aren't more people rolling up with Medusae in their venoms?   Sat Feb 03 2018, 02:47

I'm using a lot of Sslyths (8-10) as footslogger and I never had any problem to bring them in the fight. 8"-D6 any turn and still shot (4+ reroll, which is better than a normal 3+ embarked), they are all characters so no worry to get focussed with fire, and in CC they're pretty tought.and hit harder than what you can belive (heroic intervention for every one and reroll wtih the Archon).

But I find myself a bit in overkill, so I'm considering to change some Sslyths for Medusae. Of course they don't have 8"+D6+18" range, but 8"+D6-9" still good for me and they helps alot against any deepstriking unit or fast melee unit (and there's a lot of them).
In a Venom they can be tricky for me. I don't like to put Archon+4Medusae in a single one, it means draw a big red target on it. 4 Medusae alone sounds better for me and you can DS your Archon whenever Medusaes disembarks.

Fooslogging Court anyway works
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PFI
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PostSubject: Re: Why aren't more people rolling up with Medusae in their venoms?   Tue Feb 06 2018, 23:27

since slyth have the same insensible to pain rule as wracks and haemonc covens, if the new codex gives a way to buff this to a 4++, I'd play a ton of slyth
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Why aren't more people rolling up with Medusae in their venoms?   Mon Feb 12 2018, 16:51

I'd use more of the court options if their models we're so expensive. Just getting 4 medusae is expensive for such a small pts cost unit. Definitely think they have potential though it's a shame they don't have 10" range so you could deep strike them.

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Zeusius
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PostSubject: Re: Why aren't more people rolling up with Medusae in their venoms?   Mon Feb 12 2018, 19:35

It seems like some court models can augment the units we have really well. Like an Ur-Ghuul soaking up overwatch fire for wyches or wracks etc..
I have entertained the idea of putting 9 Kabalites in a Raider with one Medusae. It seems it could help their firepower quite a bit. But have not had a chance to play test this.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Why aren't more people rolling up with Medusae in their venoms?   Mon Feb 12 2018, 21:29

Only problem is if you replace one kabalite warrior with a medusae, you're missing out on a blaster or dark lance and I don't think that's worth it at all.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Why aren't more people rolling up with Medusae in their venoms?   Tue Feb 13 2018, 06:39

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Only problem is if you replace one kabalite warrior with a medusae, you're missing out on a blaster or dark lance and I don't think that's worth it at all.

While you are right, you can have both the HQ and the medusae in there. That way you can bring the character along for the ride, (who might also have a darklight shot) and some more ap shots from the medusa.
You don't lose any darklight if you go from 9-5 without losing much. It also gives the option to ditch part of the passengers on an objective and claim another one somewhere else later as well.


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Zeusius
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PostSubject: Re: Why aren't more people rolling up with Medusae in their venoms?   Tue Feb 13 2018, 22:49

@|Meavar wrote:
@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Only problem is if you replace one kabalite warrior with a medusae, you're missing out on a blaster or dark lance and I don't think that's worth it at all.

While you are right, you can have both the HQ and the medusae in there. That way you can bring the character along for the ride, (who might also have a darklight shot) and some more ap shots from the medusa.
You don't lose any darklight if you go from 9-5 without losing much. It also gives the option to ditch part of the passengers on an objective and claim another one somewhere else later as well.



How you use the court is subjective and based on your goals and how much flexibility you want built into the unit they roll with.

If you want a raider full of kabalites mulching infantry will a DL really help you out? The points are not the same either, but losing the flexibility to drop 5 guys off on a potential objective you take a hit there too. Another question pops into mind... Will that raider ever get within 9" of your target?

I thought it would be fun to try out and potentially useful. Once again, I think the court in general is pretty versatile this edition and medusae in particular can definitely put out some heat. What is the most efficient way to utilize this?

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PostSubject: Re: Why aren't more people rolling up with Medusae in their venoms?   Thu Feb 15 2018, 10:45

I liked the idea of this until I remembered that having an Archon with the Medusae achieves bugger-all, since being right next to him in a transport apparently doesn't count as being within 3" of him.

I eagerly await the day when the Archon is no longer surplus to his own army. Rolling Eyes
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