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 Lets talk about Wracks

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FenWulf
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Sun Feb 04 2018, 01:12

@FuelDrop wrote:
Liquifiers are weird. They're expensive, cannot be spammed in any meaningful quantity, and have a very low strength.

They're not good against hordes (too expensive, not enough of them), not good against Elites (Low Strength), and definitely not good against monsters/vehicles.

The fact that they are only available to a small portion of the army, and one that is supposed to be in melee as much as possible, just compounds matters.

It's like someone looked at the liquifier and went "How can I magnify its weaknesses while minimizing its strengths?"

Hence it's a ranged weapon only available to melee units. It's a low strength weapon that can't be spammed. It's a decent AP weapon that can't reliably wound. And to round it out it's an expensive weapon for what it does.



Well put!

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FenWulf
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Sun Feb 04 2018, 01:15

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
So, either lower its cost or make it S4 and keep the price tag. I'm fine either way.


S4 PLEASE!!

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Sun Feb 04 2018, 03:00

Here's the thing. let us look at flamer style weapons.

Guard can get special weapon squads and spam flamers en mass.
Space Marines can go one better with a sternguard squad full of combi-flamers.
Ork Burna-boyz come stock with burners for all.
Tau can triple flamer crisis suit squads if they get the urge.
Craftworlders can get their good old Wraithguard armed with D-Scythes.
Chaos can get havocs or chosen with flamer spam, getting 4 flamers and a combi-flamer in a single squad.
Battle Sisters can spam flamers. My god can they spam flamers.
Even Tyranids get full squads of Pyrovores, should they ever go crazy and decide they want to.

There are two armies that lack the ability to spam flamer-type weapons (not counting tiny factions like Harliquins, Imperial Agents, Ynnari, ect.). Necrons (who lack a flamer equivalent weapon) and Dark Eldar (who can only get it in very small numbers compared to the other factions listed above)

This means that not only is it more expensive than a Flamer, but it is also less numerous on the field. That really hurts it for filling the normal flamer role.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Sun Feb 04 2018, 14:23

That's nicely put into perspective. Personally, I am against having combi weapons because we should be a specialist army. And I am no fan of heavy-weapon squads such as Wraithguards because it goes against our "death from a thousand cuts" mentality.

I actually think not being able to field special wargear in greater numbers is one of the biggest problems in our army and really suffer in this regard. It fits with the glass cannon playstyle as well as the theme of a technoligically superior and arrogant/elitistic race. A race that uses excotic and cruel wargear because we would not settle for anything less sophisticated.

Really, if Liquifiers were the same price as a flamer (due to their similar performance) and if we could equip every Wrack with a Liquifier they would be really terrifying. The same applies for Shredders if they were actually worth purchasing. It also extends to Wyches and Bloodbrides who would be frighteningly effective if every Wych/Bloodbride had her own pair of Hydra Gauntlets. (But of course, that is a different topic).

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Sun Feb 04 2018, 15:19

@The Strange Dark One wrote:

Really, if Liquifiers were the same price as a flamer (due to their similar performance) and if we could equip every Wrack with a Liquifier they would be really terrifying. The same applies for Shredders if they were actually worth purchasing. It also extends to Wyches and Bloodbrides who would be frighteningly effective if every Wych/Bloodbride had her own pair of Hydra Gauntlets. (But of course, that is a different topic).

Agree with part 1, disagree with part 2. Bloodbride with Hydra Gauntlets cost 17 points, the same cost as Korne Beserkers with Chainaxes. Running the comparison, both are the same cost, elites, and assault units, but the beserkers (pumping out 4 S6 AP -1 attacks each, Toughness 4 with 3+ armour) outclass our girls so badly it's not funny.

The problems with wyches and bloodbrides are so fundemental that even giving broad weapon access isn't enough to make them worthwhile.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Sun Feb 04 2018, 16:35

Well, you are right about Wyches and even more so about Bloodbrides (and this topic really doesnt belong here). Wargear is not an end to every problem, but it can be a significant improvement and I would prefer improving the army with special weapons wherever it could be possible to do so.

For me, wargear is not only a means to greater firepower but also is part of the identity of the Dark Eldar.

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Voidhawk
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Mon Feb 05 2018, 00:46

Liquifiers shouldn't be our flamer-equivalent: Shredders should be. Shredders should be range 9", d6 auto-hits, and spammable on basically everything. As it stands they've been useless for so many editions we've lost count.

Liquifiers should be the more expensive and rarer anti-marine gun. Give them good AP and Dmg 2 to slice through Primaris.
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Frowny
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Sun Feb 18 2018, 03:07

I think you are all a little too kind to wracks.  t4 and a 5++/6+++ for 11 pts is not really that survivable at all, and that is supposedly their main selling point, 5++/6+++ is worse than a 4+ save against small arms and can't be improved by cover for objective camping. It is better against heavy weapons, but nobody is realistically shooting those at wracks anyway given how many transports most lists run. On the damage output end, 2 attacks wounding on a 4+ is also nothing to write home about, similar to strength 4 in most situations. Sure, buffing them to T5 makes them better, but most other armies have ways to boost their troops too, so once you start comparing there, you are ignoring all the reroll auras in other armies as well.


Even within the dark eldar codex, there are better options
+3 movement, +1 attack and 1 point cheaper per model! They lose the 6++, but i think given the cost reduction, this is still a marked improvement, at least on foot they seem a clear winner.


For walking, Incubi are ironically similarly resilient, as a 3+/6+++ more than offsets the benefits of T4 or even t5 against small arms. And they pack the same number of attacks per point but always S4 and with Ap-3, plus the possibility of additional damage. They also seem like clear winners for transported melee specialists.


I guess maybe to deploy a semi-resilient threat from a transport on a distant objective to camp it? But then why not just use warriors, who can at least shoot into the field.


More broadly, in other codexes, for +1-2 points you can get 
2 Hormaguants (sturdier, faster, hit harder)
1 genestealer (hits harder, faster, almost as reslient)
1 Howling Banshee (Faster, almost equaly resilient, Ap-3)
1 Striking Scorpion (Sturdier, Deep strike)
2 Ork Boyz (T4, 2W on 2 bodies, +4 attacks with similar effectiveness)
~1.5 plague bearers (slower, but definitely sturdier, similar damage output)
~1.5 deamonettes or bloodletters (Much killier, similarly sturdy given the numbers)


Keep in mind,  I was definitely not trying to cream out just the strongest in other codexes either. Deamonettes are hardly thought of as strong, yet are ironically sturdier, hit harder and are faster.... 




Just hoping they do something with wracks. I think I'd hope for 2 W at a similar price, maybe +1 point or so.  Then they act as incredibly annoying bullet sponges that are very hard to shift with small arms. No need to make them killier. Thats not really supposed to be their thing anyway.







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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Sun Feb 18 2018, 17:36

What really bugs me about Wracks is that their ranged options always seemed weird and out of place.
- One Wrack can take an Ossefactor. I like the Ossefactor (not sure it's worth 13pts, but whatever), but it seems completely out of place on Wracks. It's an Assault 24" weapon on a unit that basically has no other ranged weapons.
- The Acothyst is the only other model that can take a ranged weapon, but his only long-ranged option is the Hexrifle. A 36" Heavy 1 weapon. What. So I guess the melee unit also has the option of sitting 36" away and never moving. Neutral
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Mon Feb 19 2018, 03:17

@The Shredder wrote:
What really bugs me about Wracks is that their ranged options always seemed weird and out of place.
- One Wrack can take an Ossefactor. I like the Ossefactor (not sure it's worth 13pts, but whatever), but it seems completely out of place on Wracks. It's an Assault 24" weapon on a unit that basically has no other ranged weapons.
- The Acothyst is the only other model that can take a ranged weapon, but his only long-ranged option is the Hexrifle. A 36" Heavy 1 weapon. What. So I guess the melee unit also has the option of sitting 36" away and never moving.  Neutral

Every army has their sniper weapons limited to the squad leader of a melee only unit. Right?
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Leninade
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Mon Feb 19 2018, 21:37

Didn't hex rifles always used to be assault 1?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Mon Feb 19 2018, 21:43

@Leninade wrote:
Didn't hex rifles always used to be assault 1?

Yes. Yes they did.

And then one of the geniuses on the GW writing team decided that the best way to improve a melee unit would be to give them a Heavy 1 sniper rifle.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Sun Feb 25 2018, 08:11

Even if overcosted, 5 of them.with double lique+whip can bring a good amount of Ap1-3 hits for their cost. For someone who wanna use them he will find them kinda overcosted (lique are), but still acceptable..ish... for their role. Still.bring more quality attacks than wyches.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Sun Feb 25 2018, 12:01

That is, of course, if you are actually willing to integrate S3, AP1-3 weapons in your army. For those that actually want to do more than blow soft breezes at their enemies, the Ossefactor is much, much better (even though you only have 1, it actually kills things, and doesn't have the range of a 5 year old in a pissing contest).


Quote :
Yes. Yes they did.

And then one of the geniuses on the GW writing team decided that the best way to improve a melee unit would be to give them a Heavy 1 sniper rifle.

"Heavy" sounds so badass, it can only be good, right ?

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Mon Feb 26 2018, 03:07

For the same points as a liquifier you can get a Wych with Hydra Gauntlets and +1 attack drugs. Sad thing is, the Wych is probably a better investment.
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