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FrankyMcShanky
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PostSubject: Lets talk about Wracks   Mon Jan 29 2018, 21:24

How are these cutie patooties treating you in 8th?  Are you finding them a decent tarpit?  They seem okay at killing MEQ.  Do you have any wishes for them when our Codex drops?
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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Mon Jan 29 2018, 21:29

I only got 10 of em and played just a handfull of games with them. But i'd give them a solid Ok! This asuming you go with the RAI with the ossifactor not generating MW for eternity.
honestly i mostly want a little greater offensive ability to them. Like the good ol' reroll to wound if S>T. Or being able to take more snipers as to make it worth having the weapond at all.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Mon Jan 29 2018, 22:19

Quote :
Like the good ol' reroll to wound if S>T.
You're facing T2 enemies a lot ? ^^


Wracks are very fine for the moment. The Ossefactor is very good (poisoned 2+ with such a good AP is already good, and the rules as written make it a crazy weapon), and having T5 5++/6+++ is actually quite tough for an 11pts troop.

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Pain Engine
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Mon Jan 29 2018, 23:53

They're fine. They are decently tough, hit ok and have access to some good options. Of course, it would be nice if they hit a bit harder or if their survivability stood out more. I actually feel that t4 5++/6+++ for 11 pts is just a bit subpar compared to other armies' options, and would love for the codex to represent how they can get chunks blown out of them and not care with w2, however awkward that might be to balance.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Tue Jan 30 2018, 15:13

They're okay, but weirdly designed. It's a melee unit, but every special weapons they got are ranged weapons. I would create 2 separate wracks units. 1 melee and 1 ranged. Melee would have poison 2+, but low AP and ranged would have poison 5+, AP-3, auto-hit.
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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Tue Jan 30 2018, 16:26

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
Like the good ol' reroll to wound if S>T.
You're facing T2 enemies a lot ? ^^


Well you gotta deal with those pesky gretchin somehow ^^
Might neglectet that the Furious Charge was required to make it worth something. It's been a long time since 7th.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Tue Jan 30 2018, 18:41

@dumpeal wrote:
They're okay, but weirdly designed. It's a melee unit, but every special weapons they got are ranged weapons. I would create 2 separate wracks units. 1 melee and 1 ranged. Melee would have poison 2+, but low AP and ranged would have poison 5+, AP-3, auto-hit.

I don't mind having units that are not mono-dimensional. It makes them interesting and challenging to play, as long as their "difficulty of use" is compensated by some kind of increased efficiency.

I like Dark Eldar because it's not "this guy is made for shooting, this guy is made for assault".

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Tue Jan 30 2018, 19:02

I think flamers for melee troops are a good combination anyway and the Ossefactor is a weapon you simply cannot have enough of too.

The only weapon that goes to waste is the Hexrifle.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Tue Jan 30 2018, 20:26

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
I think flamers for melee troops are a good combination anyway and the Ossefactor is a weapon you simply cannot have enough of too.

The only weapon that goes to waste is the Hexrifle.

+1


Having a dedicated sniper unit for Wracks would be interesting. Snipers are one of the few roles that doesn't go well with versatility.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Tue Jan 30 2018, 20:52

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:
I think flamers for melee troops are a good combination anyway and the Ossefactor is a weapon you simply cannot have enough of too.

The only weapon that goes to waste is the Hexrifle.

+1


Having a dedicated sniper unit for Wracks would be interesting. Snipers are one of the few roles that doesn't go well with versatility.

IF we got a good sniper gun, I agree. IF....
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FrankyMcShanky
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Tue Jan 30 2018, 21:10

It's a shame, because I really like the Hexrifle model.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Tue Jan 30 2018, 21:28

@FrankyMcShanky wrote:
It's a shame, because I really like the Hexrifle model.

And the fluff too.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Tue Jan 30 2018, 22:00

Honestly, it wouldn't be that bad if you could equip every wrack with it. The range is bad for a sniper, but AP-1 is neat.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Tue Jan 30 2018, 23:07

Even then, 11pts for a Hexrifle is far too excessive. I hope Wracks are one of the big winners in the Codex. With better balanced wargear they could become intriguing troop choices and make a full coven army much more interesting.

(My big hope is still an Acothyst Conclave as an elite choice with an abundance of wargear, but I know you can't have everything Razz)

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Wed Jan 31 2018, 01:03

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
Even then, 11pts for a Hexrifle is far too excessive. I hope Wracks are one of the big winners in the Codex. With better balanced wargear they could become intriguing troop choices and make a full coven army much more interesting.

(My big hope is still an Acothyst Conclave as an elite choice with an abundance of wargear, but I know you can't have everything Razz)

I still remember my armies led by Steve the abomination. Now I don't even field grotesques. Nor wracks,
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Coopertron
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Wed Jan 31 2018, 02:37

How do you guys feel about wracks with liquifiers?

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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Wed Jan 31 2018, 04:07

Strength 3 really hurts the liquifiers. They suffer from having been good in a past edition and nerfed since then.

I too would really like to see the he rifle actually do something cool.

Overall wracks aren't bad at all. Even better if they are T5 from a buff. Still kabalites are more versatile.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Wed Jan 31 2018, 08:06

Jeah I think wracks are not that bad (could do with a 1 point decrease), they just are not that versatile, that is their major issue if you want to go full coven.
It supports the idea that you want coven kabal and cult in the same army.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Wed Jan 31 2018, 09:48

Liquifiers are weird. They're expensive, cannot be spammed in any meaningful quantity, and have a very low strength.

They're not good against hordes (too expensive, not enough of them), not good against Elites (Low Strength), and definitely not good against monsters/vehicles.

The fact that they are only available to a small portion of the army, and one that is supposed to be in melee as much as possible, just compounds matters.

It's like someone looked at the liquifier and went "How can I magnify its weaknesses while minimizing its strengths?"

Hence it's a ranged weapon only available to melee units. It's a low strength weapon that can't be spammed. It's a decent AP weapon that can't reliably wound. And to round it out it's an expensive weapon for what it does.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Wed Jan 31 2018, 15:02

Quote :
Hence it's a ranged weapon only available to melee units.

That's not a problem at all.

Consider Orkz : the Tankhammer is a melee weapon that can only be used by a squad that functions primarily on ranged anti-tank. BUT IT WORKS !

The problem with the liquifier isn't that it's a ranged weapon in a CC unit. The problem is that it's not powerful enough to justify the adjustment in the Wrack playstyle.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Wed Jan 31 2018, 18:48

It's basically just a poor quality flamer, it would at least need to be equal to a standard flamer to consider being worth using in a bunch of wrack units and have them actually be somewhat effective.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Wed Jan 31 2018, 19:37

Actually, the Liquifier is about as strong as a conventional flamer but its only downfall is its increased cost (for whatever reason). If you compare a flamer and liquifier, they are only ever about 10% worse or better on most common targets.

Most notably, the Liquifier falls short against targets with a low save or invul save. But apart from that, it acts mostly like a usual flamer.

So, either lower its cost or make it S4 and keep the price tag. I'm fine either way.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Thu Feb 01 2018, 06:47

It is more effective against guard and marine eq (while being slightly worse against orks and even better against anything with a 2+)
Guard 1.55 vs 1.75
Marines 0.58 vs 0.78 (that is a 33% increase which is the same as going from a 4+ to a 3+)
terminators 0.29 vs 0.58
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Thu Feb 01 2018, 14:16

The problem is that Orkz should be the primary target for a flamer. A flamer that specializes in TEQ killing is a weird flamer. We got dissies for TEQ, flamers should be an answer to GEQ.

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PostSubject: Re: Lets talk about Wracks   Thu Feb 01 2018, 16:33

Jeah but flamers to kill marines is not that bad. And yes it is an unusual flamer, I am fine with that.
We just need another weapon (say a shredder?) or melee option (say hellions/+1s wyches) to deal with the orcs.

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