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yellabelly
Sybarite
yellabelly

Posts : 314
Join date : 2017-11-16

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 20 2018, 22:49

You can take odd pack sizes in matched play can't you? They come in pairs for PP, the same as kabalites come in 5's. But when paying points you can take any number between 2 and 12.

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Bad-baden-baden
Kabalite Warrior
Bad-baden-baden

Posts : 227
Join date : 2017-06-01
Location : Montreal

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 20 2018, 22:55

I'm not hating on you mate, you're getting some flack because you came off a tad conceited with your first post, suggesting you had an ultimate strategy that no one else had thought of, and that everyone is playing dark eldar wrong.


Your strategy is sound - spamming is strong, but the problems I have are twofold.

1. It's not dark eldar.
2. It's a worse version of what other armies can do easier and better.

So, of course the optimal version of playing dark eldar is to spam the ever loving god out of kaballites, but it's super unthematic and doesn't play to our gimmick whatsoever, and it's something that can be done much much much better by most other armies.
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DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ
Hellion
DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ

Posts : 66
Join date : 2016-10-07

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 20 2018, 22:56

Yep u take in pairs with points
They are quite good in numbers
What I'm using mass kb warriors kymeria and sometimes wyches
People don't expect this
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TheBaconPope
Wych
TheBaconPope

Posts : 706
Join date : 2017-03-10

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 20 2018, 22:57

Quote :
You can take odd pack sizes in matched play can't you? They come in pairs for PP, the same as kabalites come in 5's. But when paying points you can take any number between 2 and 12.

Not from the asinine way GW worded it. For example, the Kabalite unit entry is this,
Quote :
This unit contains 1 Sybarite and 4 Kabalite Warriors. It can include up to 5 additional Kabalite Warriors.

Emphasis bolded. The key thing to note is that while power levels are specified in incriminates of 5, the models themselves are referenced individually.

Now, compare that to,
Quote :
This unit contains 2 Khymerae. It may include up to 5 additional pairs of Khymerae.

Notice how they're treated as individual models, but instead of stating "Up to 12 Khymerae," it instead refers to them as "pairs" when scaling up, making them be taken in groups of two.
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yellabelly
Sybarite
yellabelly

Posts : 314
Join date : 2017-11-16

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 20 2018, 23:02

So just confirm for me, how much are you paying for your 100 khymerae? Because you've said you wrote the wrong total, but you also said they are 5 points per model when I pointed out they should be 10. I'm not trying to be an arse, just if someone is making a mistake (we all do it) it's best to know and put it right.

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The Shredder
Trueborn
The Shredder

Posts : 2968
Join date : 2013-04-11

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 20 2018, 23:09

@DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ wrote:
People don't expect this

People don't expect me to spend 5 minutes of every game performing the Stick and Bucket dance.

Strangely, this does not appear to improve my win rate.
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DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ
Hellion
DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ

Posts : 66
Join date : 2016-10-07

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 20 2018, 23:15

10 points
So 50 is 500 100 is 1000
So I've tried 30-130
I've found 50-100 work well
But I use around 60 kbs kitted out also in all lists at 210 each for 20 and run always 2 flyers
So points get tight
Depends on tourn and objectives
As some release players pack before lists are submitted
I'm experimenting with the big heasts running two squads of 6
Also
In regards to comments made re army vs fluff
There are billions of dark eldar so dropping them to die is a normal archon thing to do Wink
I'd rather I agree play skyboarders and other cool units
To me the kabal (shooty part) is 50% of your army
The rest is beasts or wyches cult or harmoculus as the hth
And we want numbers
We are not Custodes taking 11 models


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DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ
Hellion
DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ

Posts : 66
Join date : 2016-10-07

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 20 2018, 23:22

My expectations of the new codex is points drops for the big beast dudes and grotesques
Maybe Khymeria to 7-8 points so you can use more
Talks and cronos points drop
Wyches get 5 inv save from shooting and in hth
Not 4 up shooting only
Hq suck your bus gets 4 up vs anything
So wyches should be same but lesser
Maybe they will be dropped in points
Either way winning 40k is about numbers and armies
Ability to both dish out and take hits
Playing numbers feels like a mix of a horde army and imperial guard sometimes
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The Shredder
Trueborn
The Shredder

Posts : 2968
Join date : 2013-04-11

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 20 2018, 23:25

Here's the thing - let's say for a moment that you're correct and that these horde armies are effective. Why am I even playing Dark Eldar?

I'm dead serious here. I already have a horde army (and an effective one at that) in the form of Imperial Guard. Is there a reason I'd want to use Dark Eldar over Imperial Guard? Especially given that, in addition to doing Horde armies far better (cheaper units, much better buffs, more versatility in horde-able infantry etc.), IG have an actual codex with stratagems, Relics and just far more stuff in general. Hell, with the right doctrines, they can basically out-DE DE.

To put it another way, I didn't start DE to play some sort of horde army. I started IG to play a horde army. I started DE to play a fast, flavourful army with heavy use of transports and such.
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amishprn86
Archon
amishprn86

Posts : 3794
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 20 2018, 23:26

Well again top BA list i was tabled and this was my list.

30 Khymerae's
12 RWF
3 Claw Fiends
2 Beast Masters
2 Archons
1 Bomber
30 Kabals
10 Mandrakes
2 Dis cannon Ravagers
1 Reaper

Even if i had 100 Khymerae's i would have been tabled, when you have a unit like a 15 man DC, DS and charge with re-rolls, +1 attacks. and can attack 2x (that is 2 pile in's and consolidates), getting 60 attacks with 3+ wound wound. Thats a full squad something like 26 wounds each round and b.c they have Jump Packs its not hard to multi charge.

THEN you have the 10 Sguard or 40 Primaris Marines.

IDK how you would beat lists like that. Where they can kill 100 models a turn.

PS, his Captain literally 1 CC my Bomber (4 damage per hit is really good)

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DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ
Hellion
DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ

Posts : 66
Join date : 2016-10-07

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 20 2018, 23:27

Yep I agree with what you are saying
It's just gone that way with points
It's a big change to 7 Ed
I was running coven lists then with Talos
Now I'm running beasts flyers and kbs
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DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ
Hellion
DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ

Posts : 66
Join date : 2016-10-07

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 20 2018, 23:34

I table primaris marine armies fast with Ravagers
The BA tactic to charge ya flyers can be stopped if you have moved them strategically
Have beasts at there base - 6 out to stop the deep strike from them
And move sideways keeping weapons at max distance on flyers
My mate plays BA
I know your pain
I've learnt hard way
Btw the razor flocks are not value for points I've found
Try more kymeria or kbs or another Ravager with DC
Rolling more dice wounding high T on 5 is better than 2 dice for DLs I often find

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DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ
Hellion
DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ

Posts : 66
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 20 2018, 23:40

Has anyone taken 6 plus Ravagers with DGs?
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amishprn86
Archon
amishprn86

Posts : 3794
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 20 2018, 23:41

Ravagers only kills a few a turn, when there are 30+ you can not do that in 1-2 turns. No matter if lance or diss, diss for sure is better again primairs.

I HAD to move it otherwise i would have been table turn 2 instead of turn 3, he didnt NEED to kill it, i put it in the way.

And RWF i need for the Fly keyword, thats why its 1 unit. It doesnt matter if i get 5 more dogs out of it, they are well worth it, and the +2" movement helps.

I'm just saying with the math, its literally impossible for him to win DE Horde vs it, the math is not there.


I HAVE beaten that list many times actually (well he used to play with Dante but he took him out and now he is doing much better). but still just b.c i have beaten that list doesnt mean i will beat Orks, or CWE.

EDIT: !!!   Its not the Primaris thats the Problem, its the 4-5 Characters and the 25 Jump marines (Sguard and DC) they just do way to much damage way to easily. We have a Vanillia SM that uses the Yellow (I forget the name) faction and i table him every game. Again Primaris isnt the problem, they are there so he doesnt get table turn 1.


@DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ wrote:
Has anyone taken 6 plus Ravagers with DGs?

DG's?

I have played 5 Ravagers and 1 Reaper many times, its actually fun to play.

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FuelDrop
Hekatrix
FuelDrop

Posts : 1392
Join date : 2015-06-21

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 20 2018, 23:47

Melee hordes: Play Orks or 'Nids
Ranged hordes: Play Guard.

Dark Eldar CAN do hordes, but we will get beaten at hoarding by dedicated horde armies.
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amishprn86
Archon
amishprn86

Posts : 3794
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Location : Ohio

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 20 2018, 23:51

@FuelDrop wrote:
Melee hordes: Play Orks or 'Nids
Ranged hordes: Play Guard.

Dark Eldar CAN do hordes, but we will get beaten at hoarding by dedicated horde armies.

Its like Dedicated Horde armies are good at being a dedicated Horde army!

Also Orks i think are doing the best at GW's tournament atm.... dont quote me i havnt really kept up with it to much.

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DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ
Hellion
DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ

Posts : 66
Join date : 2016-10-07

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 21 2018, 00:10

Yeah but no one's running horde armies I've seen
Dark Eldar I believe have the edge due to 7 point models fnp and being able to shoot mcs on 4 plus
We get mass splinter fire
It's hard to run hordes in limited time games
Did any horde type list run in LVO?
Some Lists I saw that did well I'd normally beat
Others were tougher but not horde
Makes me wonder who they played and the terrain
They only play 5 peeps out of 500
Also I'm on the dark eldar Facebook group so if you see Gary posting stuff on there with pics that's me
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amishprn86
Archon
amishprn86

Posts : 3794
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 21 2018, 00:24

Did you watch the GW's tournament? The top 5 list are 90-100+ models
Did you see the SOB LVO list? (was top 10) Its was 100+ models
Did you see some of the (Input 50 other lists that are near 100 models)

IDK what you are talking about, many horde lists at ALL tournaments.

Edit: Let me repeat, one of the top 10 LVO lists had over 100 models.

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The Shredder
Trueborn
The Shredder

Posts : 2968
Join date : 2013-04-11

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 21 2018, 00:37

@DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ wrote:
Yeah but no one's running horde armies I've seen

I am. Razz

@DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ wrote:
Dark Eldar I believe have the edge due to 7 point models fnp and being able to shoot mcs on 4 plus

As an IG player, I'm going to have to strongly disagree here. Wounding MCs on a 4+ is, quite frankly pathetic. It's not impressive to begin with, but with no AP and just 1 damage apiece, you just don't do enough damage to seriously threaten most MCs in the game (certainly not with any efficiency). You'd be far better off just using Heavy Weapons on the MCs and saving your basic weapons for use against infantry... except that DE also trade their anti-infantry firepower for weaksauce "anti-MC" guns.

With my IG and their plasmaguns (including Scion Squads landing within 12" of their target), Lascannons, and even lasguns with FRFSRF, I really don't fear MCs. Hell, even if I can't kill them as quickly as I'd like, I can afford to just feed them some squads.


@DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ wrote:
We get mass splinter fire

We get First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire! Very Happy

7pt models firing 2 shots each at 12" vs. 4pt models firing 4 shots each at 12". I'll take that bet.


@DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ wrote:
It's hard to run hordes in limited time games
Did any horde type list run in LVO?

Well, I'll admit that this is where my expertise ends. I don't generally play in tournaments because they typically require painted armies and, quite frankly, painted armies are something that happen to other people. Wink
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CptMetal
Trueborn
CptMetal

Posts : 2951
Join date : 2015-03-03
Location : Ruhr Metropolian Area

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 21 2018, 00:39

That's the problem with the new edition. The new wounding table and hit mechanic in combat benefits horde armies.

It's a fundamental problem of Warhammer this edition.
That's wht horde razorwing was so tough.

Edit: why do you write so... strangely?
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Bad-baden-baden
Kabalite Warrior
Bad-baden-baden

Posts : 227
Join date : 2017-06-01
Location : Montreal

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 21 2018, 01:32

@CptMetal wrote:
That's the problem with the new edition. The new wounding table and hit mechanic in combat benefits horde armies.

It's a fundamental problem of Warhammer this edition.
That's wht horde razorwing was so tough.

Edit: why do you write so... strangely?

This is the crux of my worries towards Dark Eldar. Speed is pretty meaningless now, as terrain has no real meaning, we're not very fast overall, other armies are insanely fast/versatile (Deep striking orks anyone?). Poison hasn't scaled at all and is more a detriment than a benefit at this time, and our tough coven's stuff isn't so tough with the new wounding table either.

The fundamental changes from 7th to 8th have really put a lot of the traditional Dark Eldar gimmicks on the backburner. It's why I'm both excited and cynical about the new codex, so that I can find out what's been done to us.
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DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ
Hellion
DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ

Posts : 66
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 21 2018, 02:37

Yeah S v T has changed the game
My splinter shooting has killed Magnus and G Man
Or taken them down 50% leaving Ravager to mop up
I've noted comments about LVO
I don't know what builds they are that are hordes that we're top
Did dark eldar even play in it and I'm curious as to there builds
My impression is DE players often do not use large numbers
I haven't seen Skari discuss it
As I've said everything I've read in places is people talking 7th Ed tactica older ideas

I frequently play guard and my mates list is hard and full of Gatling 40 shot guns on flyers and pask Gatling 40 shot tank
He had mortars galore hellhounds 60-80 guard guys? Etc etc
I've beaten that with 60 guys 2 Ravagers 4 flyers
Taos harmoculus raider and incubi etc
Not my best list but just managed it
Close games are fun
But most my lists since are 100 plus basic models and it's been effective for me given it's an index only
I'll see what natcon in NZ is like and I'll put pics up on the Facebook dark eldar group
Like to show people what's going on
Thanks for comments
I like to push codex limits somewhat





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The Red King
Hekatrix
The Red King

Posts : 1239
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 21 2018, 03:35

I'm going to quote a post that admittedly was from 7th edition so the fnp is no longer applicable but...

"Girly man is T6, W6, 2+, FnP, with the ability to return on d3 wounds.

So on the start, maybe 9 unsaved wounds to kill.
1/3 is covered by FnP, meaning 14 actual saves failed.
5/6 will save, so 84 wounds needed.
Half will wound on poison, so 168 hits needed.
And we usually hit 2/3 of the time, so 252 shots would be needed on pure maths alone."

So "my splinter shooting has killed girlyman" is a great anecdote but it doesn't change the statistical improbability of doing that. Not to mention the fact he's a character so Dark Muses know how you got all 100 requisite shooters into rapid fire with him being the closest model.

I'm sorry but until I see some battle reports, write ups, or in depth tournament results I'm not saying I think you're lying, but I don't think this this grand enlightenment you espouse is universal.

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Bad-baden-baden
Kabalite Warrior
Bad-baden-baden

Posts : 227
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Location : Montreal

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 21 2018, 03:46

@The Red King wrote:
I'm going to quote a post that admittedly was from 7th edition so the fnp is no longer applicable but...

"Girly man is T6, W6, 2+, FnP, with the ability to return on d3 wounds.

So on the start, maybe 9 unsaved wounds to kill.
1/3 is covered by FnP, meaning 14 actual saves failed.
5/6 will save, so 84 wounds needed.
Half will wound on poison, so 168 hits needed.
And we usually hit 2/3 of the time, so 252 shots would be needed on pure maths alone."

So "my splinter shooting has killed girlyman" is a great anecdote but it doesn't change the statistical improbability of doing that. Not to mention the fact he's a character so Dark Muses know how you got all 100 requisite shooters into rapid fire with him being the closest model.

I'm sorry but until I see some battle reports, write ups, or in depth tournament results I'm not saying I think you're lying, but I don't think this this grand enlightenment you espouse is universal.

Agreed. I managed to come second playing pure Dark Eldar in a doubles tournament with 24 teams a couple weeks ago, but I'm not declaring my list as genius or my tactics revolutionary. I appreciate the idea of making the best with what we've got, but other armies just simply outclass us in being a horde.
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The Red King
Hekatrix
The Red King

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Apparently... we're next. - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 21 2018, 03:52

I mean this game is a dice game and a tactics game so maybe he's just a really good player or he accidentally left his dice in the car on a hot day but in the end it doesn't mean the army is good or in a good spot and the math (including a very well done spreadsheet put together for our letter to GW) is simply empirical.

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