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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 12:35

We... might get a couple of those models, I mean Tsons got an AoS model. I still have the feeling they are trying to soft merge AoS and 40k.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 12:39

Dark Elves PFP is crazy good have you seen it?

For those that havent...

Basically works on having a re-roll 1's on specific things per turn and they accumulate where by turn 5 you have re-roll 1's to run, charge, hit, wound AND save.

Now which would you prefer for DE? This new mechanic for Dark Elves or the one we have in the DE Index?
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URIEN
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 12:41

Hard to say oad. I thnk this new AoS version is the sorta force multiplier we're looking for...

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 12:45

Re-rolls are strong, but it depends on the order and if it in shooting, melee, or both.

Given how 40k is, it wouldnt be fore both.

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Pain Engine
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 12:46

It's neat, but I still don't think that this system works for us. It's supposed to give us momentum, but it only gives us reason to wait instead of being the hyper-aggressive army we're supposed to be.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 12:47

I also like the 6+++ right away, Tho that could just be an army rule instead of PFP.

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 12:52

I don't really like +++ saves at all. It's fluffier than other saves, but I don't want saves for non-covens; I want speed and aggression. If I could design our codex (and thank god that I can't) I would remove it completely for kabal and cult, give coven 4+++, and re-introduce the 5th edition system with some "improvements".
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 12:58

The new Dark Elves in AOS have a army wide rule that gives a 6+ save for wounds/mortal wounds taken.
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Haemonculus
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 12:59

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
You know I feel as though even if we get faster in the new codex the boards are too small to make this a strength.

Kinda feel as though speed as it used to me measured is very different now...so even if our transports got faster via wargear, they might still not be viable for getting your troops into combat.

Having seen some of the snippets for the Dark Elves in AOS and how they now basically have PFP, I am curious to see if they have changed the rules for DE more than we might have predicted.


You make a great point. The game as we know it is a totally different animal now, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they kind of re-worked our army in a different direction too. I mean, I doubt we’ll be crazy different, they’ll keep the “glass cannon” attitude for us, but it might be in a different style.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 13:00

@amishprn86 wrote:

We are just to costly for what we do. There is a reason no IG takes Chimeras in 8th, they are to costly for what they do even with how cheap guardsmen are they still are not good enough in 10mans in vehicles.

We are kinda the same way, our guys and vehicles are not equal to their points and its almost pointless to even take transports anymore. I have stopped taking them unless its to test or a fun game.  If T6 vs T5 matter (it doesnt for most games) and if a haemonculus could get the aura i vehicle or on Wings, maybe transports would be worth it.

I think the other issue is that our transports also aren't good on their own. In 7th, Warriors were largely just a tax to take Venoms. However, Venoms have had their guns nerfed to hell *and* went up in cost by about 50%. So, in addition to not being worth it as transports, they're not worth it as gunboats either.

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
You know I feel as though even if we get faster in the new codex the boards are too small to make this a strength.

I don't think the problem is the size of the board - I think the problems are:
1) Speed scales very weirdly. The fact that Jump Infantry, Bikes, vehicles and such move about twice as fast as regular infantry causes a lot of issues. It means that the slight variations between different infantry became largely meaningless, compared to modes of transport.
2) Weapons have huge ranges. I know this makes sense from a sci-fi perspective (if anything, a lot of 40k weapons have really short ranges), but for a tabletop game it means that mobility rarely makes much difference.
3) There's basically no moving after shooting, so we can use our speed to get into range... but then we're just stuck in range. We can't actually use any raid tactics of getting close, attacking, and then retreating.

I'd suggest comparing 40k to Warmachine in this regard.
- Much shorter range of movement rates (so even going from 6" to 7" makes all the difference - especially since Run and Charge moves are based entirely on your movement value - there's no random run/charge distance.)
- Much shorter ranges (few spells or weapons have more than 12" of range), so you can't just shoot the enemy from the other side of the table.
- A lot of extra movement abilities and re-positioning abilities (particularly on the fast/mobile armies).

Now, to be clear, I'm not saying that 40k needs to adopt the above. Just that the current setup places very little value on mobility.

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Dark Elves PFP is crazy good have you seen it?

For those that havent...

Basically works on having a re-roll 1's on specific things per turn and they accumulate where by turn 5 you have re-roll 1's to run, charge, hit, wound AND save.

Now which would you prefer for DE?  This new mechanic for Dark Elves or the one we have in the DE Index?

Do you even need to ask? Razz
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Pain Engine
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 13:00

Maybe we could get 5th shadow fields night shields back, or another way to reduce enemy ranges?

EDIT: I'd also like movement after shooting, as Shredder says. Could it be a stratagem, with 1 CP lettings us move 2 units? Or 1 CP for 1 unit, and 2 for 3?


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Haemonculus
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 13:02

Tbh at this point I don’t think the shadow field should even be lost anymore during games. There are so many other more powerful things. (Plus mortal wounds are a thing now).
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 13:03

You mean like always 3++ with 5+++, 3++ can be re-rolled too....

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 13:04

@Haemonculus wrote:
Tbh at this point I don’t think the shadow field should even be lost anymore during games. There are so many other more powerful things. (Plus mortal wounds are a thing now).

I think at most it should be lost only until the end of the phase or turn.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 13:05

@The Shredder wrote:
@Haemonculus wrote:
Tbh at this point I don’t think the shadow field should even be lost anymore during games. There are so many other more powerful things. (Plus mortal wounds are a thing now).

I think at most it should be lost only until the end of the phase or turn.

This^

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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 13:10

Right. I agree with the above, but I meant night shields. Sorry.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 13:31

@The Shredder wrote:


Your argument for DE being a strong army might be lacking, but you do make a very good case for the importance of grammar and sentence structure.

I laughed at this... nice.

As for his unbeatable army, you must realize that he may truly believe what he is saying based on his personal experiences. I would advise, however, that he may wish to expand his tournament experience before posting such absolutes on the forum.

Yes, you may play in three player tournaments against 10 year olds and win. That does not mean everyone else MUST be playing DE wrong, and we are all so stubborn and set in our ways to see the truth. You could post your "unbeatable and meta changing" list, but that would do two things.

1. Expose you to rebuttal and criticism, which you are unwilling to hear because you are certain in your superiority.
2. Reveal this super-list so your future opponents at a big tournament will counter-build, because we all know that all the great players in this game are fearful of a young upstart playing Dark Eldar will arise to overtake the top tables, as the oracles and portents have foretold.

Or, it could be some guy saying "I got the bestest list EVER, but I'm not gonna tell you!"

The reality is that the people on here have played DE in almost every single way imaginable. Can a DE list be made to beat a certain type of build? Of course it can. But can a DE list be made, to take on other tournament level lists in an all-comers type of format, and stay competitive?

no, no it cannot.
And THAT, I can say with certainty.



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DEfan
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 18:21

Shredder! Iambic pentameter rocks! Give GAZ a break, I like his thinking. Of late, and similar to him I've ditched the transports.

Terrain doesn't restrict foot troops movement like it used to. Terrain has stopped being "difficult" and everyone is sure footed running through ruins. My CSM buddy frequently uses warptime, my Ork buddy frequently uses Da Jump, etc, which means I can't reposition my transports anyway from a bog of lower tier troop models and board control is typically lost first turn. These lads stretch their cheap troops across the length of their deployment zone and by T2 are ready to charge.

Venoms and a Raiders just haven't offered the firepower or mobility for me to do what I want. For 100 points, I'd rather have the 2 blasters and 16 rapidfire splinter rifle shots. And above all, I'd rather have the easily acquired Command Points from my Kabs Battalions to use in the rest of my Aeldari soup.

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DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 22:31

Ok
I'm trying to offer new ideas and get people thinking outside the box
I appreciate it if I'm not attacked for it
I run Tourns 8-10 player ones
Play in interclub games and 7-16 player tourns every months with prizes
There's usually 2-4 top NZ players in those
Everyone I've played is 25 plus old
I've been playing since rogue trader
Ive always played marines but got into DE in 7th
Playing them even when it was hard to do so
Most people I play are in 30s to 40s and experienced players
Never seen younger players around as none can afford it
Since you must know re the list I'll give you a rough idea
First though I don't currently use a Tantalus
I'm still building mine
Someone else recommend it and I agreed it's ok
It's ok but would die in my opinion in a tournament
Too many points in one vehicle
It's good for the army
Ok so here we go
I use 100 -130 Khymeria beasts
100 are 500 points
They are 10 move 5 up inv 3 attacks s4 t4
U take a beast master with 10 ld
You take another 2-3 beast Masters or more
But at 54 points each it's questionable how many u need
You can drop 20 kbs full kit in rear to shoot and also use 6 BIg Beasties or 20 wyches or another 20 kbs
Depends also on meta at time but always use a harmoculus as I've often killed alot of psykers dropping him in range of the crucible
Potentially you can have table mostly covered in beasts stopping deep strike and movement
Potentially flyers can be stopped moving with no where to put base and must hover
You can use up to 200
But I'm sticking around 130 and keeping 50% of units shooting
Gws Meta is numbers
Numbers is sold models
More numbers better for army
Also with 100 kymeria and 2-3 big kb squads you have around 160 models plus others
Can easily get to 180-200
Most armies I've seen cannot deal with all the beasts plus shooting





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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 22:35

100 khymerae are 1000pts.

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DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 22:37

5 points each
You get two for 10
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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 22:42

No..... 10 points each you get two for 20. Hate to break it to you but you've been putting out 500+ points over what you should be.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 22:42

@DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ wrote:
Ok
I'm trying to offer new ideas and get people thinking outside the box
I appreciate it if I'm not attacked for it
I run Tourns 8-10 player ones
Play in interclub games and 7-16 player tourns every months with prizes
There's usually 2-4 top NZ players in those
Everyone I've played is 25 plus old
I've been playing since rogue trader
Ive always played marines but got into DE in 7th
Playing them even when it was hard to do so
Most people I play are in 30s to 40s and experienced players
Never seen younger players around as none can afford it
Since you must know re the list  I'll give you a rough idea
First though I don't currently use a Tantalus
I'm still building mine
Someone else recommend it and I agreed it's ok
It's ok but would die in my opinion in a tournament
Too many points in one vehicle
It's good for the army
Ok so here we go
I use 100 -130 Khymeria beasts
100 are 500 points
They are 10 move 5 up inv 3 attacks s4 t4
U take a beast master with 10 ld
You take another 2-3 beast Masters or more
But at 54 points each it's questionable how many u need
You can drop 20 kbs full kit in rear to shoot and also use 6 BIg Beasties or 20 wyches or another 20 kbs
Depends also on meta at time but always use a harmoculus as I've often killed alot of psykers dropping him in range of the crucible
Potentially you can have table mostly covered in beasts stopping deep strike and movement
Potentially flyers can be stopped moving with no where to put base and must hover
You can use up to 200
But I'm sticking around 130 and keeping 50% of units shooting
Gws Meta is numbers
Numbers is sold models
More numbers better for army
Also with 100 kymeria and 2-3 big kb squads you have around 160 models plus others
Can easily get to 180-200
Most armies I've seen cannot deal with all the beasts plus shooting

Do you have to post in this weird format?

I'm not trying to attack you but typing almost entirely in sentence fragments, along with a lack of punctuation, really does make your posts hard to decipher. Neutral
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 22:45

Ah yeah, this is one of the problems I have with forcing Khymera in pairs.

Khymera are priced at 10 points a piece, but forced to be taken in pairs.

The index lists them as 10 points per model, with a unit size of 2-12. The index entry specifies a min squad size of 1 Pair, with up to five additional Pairs. So, just a weird way of saying 2-12.
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DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ
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PostSubject: Re: Apparently... we're next.   Tue Feb 20 2018, 22:48

Yeah I know that sorry I wrote wrong total
But for 10 points they last longer than wyches
That's the thing and 10 move 3 attacks and 5 inv
And with combined groups of 20 guys supporting them shooting you put out the bodies stopping deep strike and flyer movement
And grabbing objectives
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