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 Reworking the Poison Mechanic

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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Tue Mar 13 2018, 05:04

One crazy idea I had was just keep the always 4+ but roll for armor saves before rolling to wound, then keep rolling to wound in each successive turn until every failed save translated into a wound, this would continually stack as the unit failed more and more armor saves. Think of it sort of like the current version of Reanimation Protocols (it hasn't changed since Index I believe) but instead of bringing models back you're stripping wounds.

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Tue Mar 13 2018, 07:28

^as cool as that would be, it gets away from the idea of 8th edition being simpler. If we really wanted to stay on themed, we’d have to find a way to either give ourselves more turns from poison. Or take away enemy turns. Aka they can’t charge, move, shoot, etc. Or at the very least, negative modifiers. Maybe determined randomly.

At the same time, I almost wish the poison was debilitating. Wyches might’ve lost the -1Attack from Shardnet, but if instead, each successful wound from poison was an increasingly powerful table, that would be cool and give them a reason to use their pistols, especially in CC. 1 wound is a -1 to hit in CC, 2-3 is -1 attack to a min 1, 3-5 is a -1 Toughness or +1 to wound in melee for us, etc etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Tue Mar 13 2018, 07:52

I'm very much of the opinion that GW are leaning towards simple rules. There would be a lot of benefit to poison simply being +1 to wound (-1 vs vehicles) and giving individual guns there own profile. Rifles S3, cannons S4 etc. The more potent poison weapons can have a +2 to wiund.
I'd also like to see splinter rifles become assault 2, although that then means splinter pods would need a rework to. The lack of shots kabalites can put out, and the fact you can't advance and fire those weapons is annoying on a fast army designed to move. Especially on reavers with a special rule for their advance, but packing no assault weapons whatsoever.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Tue Mar 13 2018, 07:53

Double post.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Tue Mar 13 2018, 12:15

So. Tau Fire Warriors are now 7 points, the equivalent cost of a warrior.

For the cost of our better BS and WS, they get a better gun, better buffs, better armour, access to pistols (yes, apparently tau can get pistols for 1 point each and we cannot despite warriors being much more likely to get into close combat than fire warriors), and (I believe but could be dead wrong) grenades.

Warriors need an upgrade to stay competitive. I say grenades and pistols stock, and wounding on 4+ with splinter weapons boosted by +1 to wound vs T3 or lower (+1 vs T4 or lower for cannon)
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Tue Mar 13 2018, 12:34

@FuelDrop wrote:
So. Tau Fire Warriors are now 7 points, the equivalent cost of a warrior.

For the cost of our better BS and WS, they get a better gun, better buffs, better armour, access to pistols (yes, apparently tau can get pistols for 1 point each and we cannot despite warriors being much more likely to get into close combat than fire warriors), and (I believe but could be dead wrong) grenades.

Warriors need an upgrade to stay competitive. I say grenades and pistols stock, and wounding on 4+ with splinter weapons boosted by +1 to wound vs T3 or lower (+1 vs T4 or lower for cannon)

Kabalites are still one of the best Eldar troop choices despite Craftworlds having a Codex. I'm skeptical that they need a direct buff, although indirect buffs like Kabal traits and transport improvements will certainly help them.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Tue Mar 13 2018, 16:28

Kabalites trump Fire warriors.

Better BS. WAY better WS (5+ -> 2+). Better movement. Less armor but PfP (Inured to pain, reroll advance and charges, etc...). Access to super cheap heavy weaponry.
And S5 isn't that great in 8th edition. In 7th it was huge, because it wounded T3 on 2+. Now, the comparison :
- They have +1 to wound against T3-T4
- We have +1 to wound against T6+

Sure, they have better range, and are not useless against vehicles, but the profile difference is SO huge.


They got buffs. And stratagems. But you can't blame Kabalites for that, that's not a profile difference. Kabalites are perfect, they are the golden profile with a golden price. What makes them a tadd less interesting is the lack of support. If the Archon was doing his job, if the Splinter Racks were doing their job, if we had stratagems, Kabalites would be the infantry masterrace.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Mar 14 2018, 07:45

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Kabalites trump Fire warriors.

Better BS. WAY better WS (5+ -> 2+). Better movement. Less armor but PfP (Inured to pain, reroll advance and charges, etc...). Access to super cheap heavy weaponry.
And S5 isn't that great in 8th edition. In 7th it was huge, because it wounded T3 on 2+. Now, the comparison :
- They have +1 to wound against T3-T4
- We have +1 to wound against T6+

Sure, they have better range, and are not useless against vehicles, but the profile difference is SO huge.


They got buffs. And stratagems. But you can't blame Kabalites for that, that's not a profile difference. Kabalites are perfect, they are the golden profile with a golden price. What makes them a tadd less interesting is the lack of support. If the Archon was doing his job, if the Splinter Racks were doing their job, if we had stratagems, Kabalites would be the infantry masterrace.

I would not say we are the infantry masterrace even with better support.
The advantage of having str 4 or 5 against vehicles means you greatly increase the number of wounds you deal against mechanised armies. (which is why I think it is fair that our dark lance is reasonably cheap).
I think their better guns (both against common t3 and 4 targets and against mechanized armies, most t6 targets will still be shot with lances if they also have normal infantry) and armour are pretty well ofset in our better base stats
Sometimes you want one sometimes the other. But the playstyle is very different as it should be.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Mar 14 2018, 08:53

Our infantry does lack against vehicles. But, if the codex fixes the special weapons then they should have the capability of offering proper threat. Blasters and lances on kabalites for vehicle work, shredders and cannons for thinning hordes. The problem isn't with the kabalites themselves. It's that their special weapon options are currently not performing.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Mar 14 2018, 09:27

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Kabalites trump Fire warriors.

Better BS. WAY better WS (5+ -> 2+). Better movement. Less armor but PfP (Inured to pain, reroll advance and charges, etc...). Access to super cheap heavy weaponry.
And S5 isn't that great in 8th edition. In 7th it was huge, because it wounded T3 on 2+. Now, the comparison :
- They have +1 to wound against T3-T4
- We have +1 to wound against T6+

Sure, they have better range, and are not useless against vehicles, but the profile difference is SO huge.


They got buffs. And stratagems. But you can't blame Kabalites for that, that's not a profile difference. Kabalites are perfect, they are the golden profile with a golden price. What makes them a tadd less interesting is the lack of support. If the Archon was doing his job, if the Splinter Racks were doing their job, if we had stratagems, Kabalites would be the infantry masterrace.

I think you're overselling the Kabalites just a touch! At the moment, they're decent troop units. Not exceptional in any way but decent and probably about the right price IF they fix the poison mechanic to not make it a handicap in most cases. I think you're overestimating the value of a 6+++ on a T3, W1 model and I think you're ignoring the fact that Tau weapons are better against 90% of the common targets in 40K.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Mar 14 2018, 09:38

I think Fire Warrios have lost quite some appeal compared to earlier editions and aAgainst most infantry, our damage output is the same.
Kabalite Warrior: Hit on a 3+, wound on a 4+
Fire Warrior: Hit on a 4+. wound on a 3+.
Which means that Kabalites are better for their points against T5 units and upwards.

Tau have higher range and better support, but having open topped vehicles is an advantage that cannot be overseen either. I also expect to see buffs in our codex which mitigates the "support" area that we are lacking right now.

But frankly I dont see the point of this comparison. You just cannot compare these units in a vacuum. Just like you can't compare Kabalites to Guardsmen.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Mar 14 2018, 10:58

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
I think Fire Warrios have lost quite some appeal compared to earlier editions and aAgainst most infantry, our damage output is the same.
Kabalite Warrior: Hit on a 3+, wound on a 4+
Fire Warrior: Hit on a 4+. wound on a 3+.
Which means that Kabalites are better for their points against T5 units and upwards.

Tau have higher range and better support, but having open topped vehicles is an advantage that cannot be overseen either. I also expect to see buffs in our codex which mitigates the "support" area that we are lacking right now.

But frankly I dont see the point of this comparison. You just cannot compare these units in a vacuum. Just like you can't compare Kabalites to Guardsmen.

Exactly how similar are units required to be before you allow me to compare them? Am I allowed to compare Wyches to Bloodbrides?

How about Space Marine tactical squads to chaos space marine squads?

Guardsmen, Fire Warriors, and DE Warriors all fill the same role: They are the primary ranged troops choice for their army.

The maximum effective range for a squad of warriors shooting their main guns is 24", +16" from the venom's movement. That comes to 40" absolute max threat range (assuming that you consider 5 splinter shots to be a threat to anything).

Tau Fire Warriors on foot can easily reach 30" (base) + 6" (movement) + 6" (range boosting wargear nearby, call it the same as the venom) + 6" (faction trait), and if you really want can add an extra +3" (disembark) for a total threat range of 48" or 51".

But let's get some rapid fire going, because that is where the magic happens. And we will give the squads every possible bonus, with turn 5 for PFP vs Full markerlights for Tau... let's make this sporting. No Markerlights for the tau. Additionally, the DE get a raider and a nearby archon while the Fire Warriors get a nearby Fireblade and Pathfinders with Pulse Accelerator Drone. Allied squads will not be firing for either side, so no disintigrations!

10 man squad in a raider, moves 14", rapid fires 12", giving a healthy 26" range bubble. Assuming we are going for maximum possible anti infantry power that is 8 rifles + a cannon for 22 poisoned 4+ shots at BS 3+, plus D3 S6 shred shots, still at 3+.

The 10 man fire warrior team, on the other hand, footslogs it 6", plus range 42" gives them a half range of 21", giving a threat bubble of 27". They open up with no special weapons, getting an extra shot each thanks to the nearby fireblade, and putting out a nice 30 S5 shots. BS 4+, of course.

Now lets add the markerlights back in and that suddenly becomes 3+ rerolling 1's ignoring cover ect.

So let's footslog it with no force multipliers on either side and no sept bonus. We have 1" of movement on them. They have 6" of range on us and 3" of rapid fire. They have better saves. Our troops are better shots, but the odds are good that we will get shot first and rapid fired first, and we cannot weather that as well as they can weather our return fire.


In conclusion:
Our speed is not enough to compensate for their range. Our ballistic skill is not enough to compensate for their rate of fire. They have better defenses, better offense, and work better together. Their weapons are better at anti-infantry work and anti-vehicle work while not being terrible against monsters. They can deal with light infantry in cover in a way that we cannot.


I fail to see how this makes DE Warriors the Troops Master Race.


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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Mar 14 2018, 11:49

@FuelDrop wrote:


Exactly how similar are units required to be before you allow me to compare them? Am I allowed to compare Wyches to Bloodbrides?

Compare all you want. It wont really mean that much in the game later, but if you're havning fun then go ahead. Since shortcommings is were tactics come in. (Don't deal with T'au the same way as you wound with a Chargifex) Sure Fire Warriors, FW, are better than Kabalite Warriors, KW, at shooting. But then why would you make them go for a shoot off since KW are clearly better at other things. Like, moving around and fighting fish people in melee.

@FuelDrop wrote:

Guardsmen, Fire Warriors, and DE Warriors all fill the same role: They are the primary ranged troops choice for their army.

As a Termagaunts and Shota Boys. They're not supposed to be as good as everything else on a specific task just becase they're in the same Detatchment slot. We're not forced to see Troops as mandatory with the new detatchments. If that'd be so we'd all just be different shapes of Power Armour.

Im not gonna add anything to your comparison. It seems nicely done and I agree with all of it. Nothing other than that it's Index Vs Codex, but that's of no substance. We do need more support, though I'm not sure of what nature I'd like to see it.
Also we can DS out Kabalites, removing the risk of getting shot first and potential charge the same turn = Nice turn in out favour. Not really something belonging in a Void Unit V Unit comparision. (But relevant in a more indepth army V army evaluation.)


@FuelDrop wrote:

In conclusion:
Our speed is not enough to compensate for their range. Our ballistic skill is not enough to compensate for their rate of fire. They have better defenses, better offense, and work better together. Their weapons are better at anti-infantry work and anti-vehicle work while not being terrible against monsters. They can deal with light infantry in cover in a way that we cannot.

Jupp, FW are all around better shootie dudes than KW. Though I see KW more as a specifik tool rather than just "Our Shootie dudes". They're REALLY good at a specific job (That job might sadly got lost in the edition change, but they're ok at killing Nids point efficient, so that's neat!). And since they're quite good at both melee and shoting I can choose what to use them for depending on what I'm up against.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Mar 14 2018, 15:20

- They have +1 save, we have 6+++. Pretty even (but we have something against AP-3, they don't).
- We have better mobility (+1 Mvt, reroll advance and charge) AND access to actually good vehicles, they have better range.
- They have better strength, we have better BS. In a meta where everything has hard to hit, and strength matters less than ever, we win hard.

In a shooting contest, without any kind of support, they are worth more or less the same. But what happens if kabalites get into CC with Fire warriors ? They murder the living heck out of them. WS 2+ vs WS 5+.

So what's the real difference between fire warriors and kabalites ? Support. They have markerlights, drones, 2 HQs that can buff them, stratagems, doctrines. In a profile comparison, Kabalites win hard. But yes, the lack of support is what's hurting Dark Eldar right now. Nothing new here.

My opinion with Kabalites right now : wait for the codex, and see what support they have access to.
- If nothing is added to our support options, well bummer, it's gonna suck.
- If we only get a few options (Splinter racks for rerolls), it's not going to be amazing, but still better than now.
- If we get what we deserve (splinter racks giving twin-linked, Archon with a Doom power), Kabalites are going to be one heck of a unit.

Honestly, Kabalites are worth 7pts, and I think giving them more than they already have for 7pts would be ridiculous. The only thing that could realistically be added to their profile is grenades. The ONLY thing they really need is support. Splinter racks, Archon doing his job properly, stratagems, doctrine, maybe Lhaemean. Their profile is already extremely good.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Mar 14 2018, 15:51

@Mppqlmd wrote:
- They have +1 save, we have 6+++. Pretty even (but we have something against AP-3, they don't).
- We have better mobility (+1 Mvt, reroll advance and charge) AND access to actually good vehicles, they have better range.
- They have better strength, we have better BS. In a meta where everything has hard to hit, and strength matters less than ever, we win hard.

In a shooting contest, without any kind of support, they are worth more or less the same. But what happens if kabalites get into CC with Fire warriors ? They murder the living heck out of them. WS 2+ vs WS 5+.

I think we have very different views on what 'murder the living heck out of them' means. It takes 5 Kabalite Warriors to kill a single Fire Warrior in combat. Five!! Okay, the FWs aren't going to do anything in return but they don't need to. They just fall back and watch their buddies shoot the crap out of the KWs. And of course, that doesn't take into account the overwatch from the entire Tau army!

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Mar 14 2018, 16:16

the problem also lies in the support fire warriors get, several options to reroll 1s, cadre fireblades to pump the number of shots up, pulse accelerator drones and bor'kan to give them 3 shots withhin 21"
but i guess we'll get splinter racks back, as a stratagem
it's something cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Mar 14 2018, 16:23

This is a unit comparison.
It takes 5 kabalites to kill a Fire warrior in CC.
How many fire warriors to kill a kabalite ? 10.8

It takes 6 kabalites shots to kill a fire warrior.
It takes 5.4 fire warrior shots to kill a kabalite.

So, in the abstract vacuum that Mathhammer is, Kabalite are better offensively than Fire warriors. 200% more powerful in cc, but 90% as effective at range ? That's pretty great.


Quote :

the problem also lies in the support fire warriors get, several options to reroll 1s, cadre fireblades to pump the number of shots up, pulse accelerator drones and bor'kan to give them 3 shots withhin 21"

My point exactly. T'au units suck by themselves, but can achieve something through support. Some of our units are pretty darn great, but the total lack of support is making us sub-par.



Edit : honestly, melee is not to be neglected when fighting other standard infantry with Kabalites. Here, with 10 kabalites, you'd be shooting 20 shots (3-4 deads), then charging (soaking overwatch with vehicle), killing another 3 bodies in melee (or 2 if you don't have agonizer), for a total of 5-7 dead (for 10 kabs), and some heavy losses expected from moral.
Kabalites are best played in a mix of shooting and charging, in my experience.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Mar 14 2018, 22:18

@Mppqlmd wrote:
This is a unit comparison.
It takes 5 kabalites to kill a Fire warrior in CC.
How many fire warriors to kill a kabalite ? 10.8

It takes 6 kabalites shots to kill a fire warrior.
It takes 5.4 fire warrior shots to kill a kabalite.

So, in the abstract vacuum that Mathhammer is, Kabalite are better offensively than Fire warriors. 200% more powerful in cc, but 90% as effective at range ? That's pretty great.


Quote :

the problem also lies in the support fire warriors get, several options to reroll 1s, cadre fireblades to pump the number of shots up, pulse accelerator drones and bor'kan to give them 3 shots withhin 21"

My point exactly. T'au units suck by themselves, but can achieve something through support. Some of our units are pretty darn great, but the total lack of support is making us sub-par.



Edit : honestly, melee is not to be neglected when fighting other standard infantry with Kabalites. Here, with 10 kabalites, you'd be shooting 20 shots (3-4 deads), then charging (soaking overwatch with vehicle), killing another 3 bodies in melee (or 2 if you don't have agonizer), for a total of 5-7 dead (for 10 kabs), and some heavy losses expected from moral.
Kabalites are best played in a mix of shooting and charging, in my experience.

THEN GIVE THEM GRENADES AND PISTOL ACCESS!!!

Literally all I have ever wanted for them. something to help them be more flexible, make Melee a better option for them.

At present Tau fire warriors have grenades and access to pistols, while we don't. I have been saying forever that we need pistols on our warriors, especially back when you couldn't rapid fire and charge in the same turn!
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Mar 14 2018, 22:29

What i'd love is to see the PfP shift more to what it was before. +1 A and +1 S on the charge was AWESOME on warriors.

Having your shooting infantry charge late-game for 3 WS 4 S4 attacks each was hilariously powerful.

And honestly, wyches are suffering a lot from the loss of Furious Charge as well.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Mar 14 2018, 22:59

@Mppqlmd wrote:
What i'd love is to see the PfP shift more to what it was before. +1 A and +1 S on the charge was AWESOME on warriors.

Having your shooting infantry charge late-game for 3 WS 4 S4 attacks each was hilariously powerful.

And honestly, wyches are suffering a lot from the loss of Furious Charge as well.

yes.

I don't consider 1 s3 attack per guy to be a good melee option, even if they are hitting on 2+. We don't have staying power with T3 5+6+++, our mobility booster (reroll advance) isn't very helpful with a pure rapid fire army with no charge after advancing options, ect.

I don't get how people say that DE aren't a melee army given that 2/3rds of our units are melee focused, as are all our buffs. Just if we're doing that, let's go all in on it! Give our warriors pistols, grenades, combat knives, ect. and make them genuinely flexible infantry that shoot the enemy to bits then charge them to clean up! Don't have all their buffs one way and all their gear another way.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Mar 15 2018, 01:32

Am I the only one here thinking that the primary use of a 5-man Warrior unit is to carry the Blaster for 50 points for the squad?  I mean, the Poison shots are nice, but hardly the reason I take them.

Btw, their use is infinitely more impactful in a Venom, which is a 16" Open-top platform that's actually very durable for its price. Warriors by themselves are meh, but in a Venom, they're very good.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Mar 15 2018, 11:29

How would you guys like it if Splinter rifels was the 4+ to wound but on a wound roll of 7+ it causes a Mortal wound in addition. Then having Strats and things to buff that to wound roll to make it more dangerous.
Or would D2 make more sense ?

Or if they go for S3, +1 to wound making it a 8+ on a wound roll (natural 6 = 7)
Would this be too good ? Sort of feel like no since we lack the exploding hits of Necrons and the support of T'au. And we lack smite thus making it hard to deal MWs.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Mar 15 2018, 11:43

I say keep it as is, but any unit targeted by Splinter weapons gets -1 Leadership.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Mar 15 2018, 12:38

@HERO wrote:
Am I the only one here thinking that the primary use of a 5-man Warrior unit is to carry the Blaster for 50 points for the squad?  I mean, the Poison shots are nice, but hardly the reason I take them.

Btw, their use is infinitely more impactful in a Venom, which is a 16" Open-top platform that's actually very durable for its price.  Warriors by themselves are meh, but in a Venom, they're very good.

It's tricky. Blasters feel slightly on the expensive side for what they offer, but without them Kabalite squads feel very anemic (and in particular I find they run into a hard wall versus MEQs).

Honestly the one buff that I'm hoping that the Splinter weapon family gets is for at least one of them to get some AP. Even a -1 on Splinter Cannons would be tremendously helpful.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Mar 15 2018, 13:57

@HERO wrote:
Am I the only one here thinking that the primary use of a 5-man Warrior unit is to carry the Blaster for 50 points for the squad?  I mean, the Poison shots are nice, but hardly the reason I take them.

Btw, their use is infinitely more impactful in a Venom, which is a 16" Open-top platform that's actually very durable for its price.  Warriors by themselves are meh, but in a Venom, they're very good.

If i wanted blasters, i'd pay for blasterborns or scourges. But i consider blasters to be overpriced and vastly inferior to Dark Lances...

More and more people are trying to footslog Kabalites... and it's actually not that bad. Very cheap, with good stats. Not needing to buy overpriced vehicles... you're basically pretending to play an Ork army... but without the CC profiles.



About Splinter :

- Splinter cannon should be buffed. More shots, or 3+ to wound, or AP, or point reduc, IDC, but buff it.
- Splinter racks need to give TWINLINKED. Not rerolls. Twinlinked. Doubling the shots.
- The Archon needs to have his "Purge cotterie" ability back. Hopefully something functioning like a Doom ability : point target, allies get a reroll to wound against it.

With splinter racks and Archon support (and some flavor stratagems), the Kabalites would be VERY viable.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   

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Reworking the Poison Mechanic
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GENERAL DRUKHARI DISCUSSION

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