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 Reworking the Poison Mechanic

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Fri Feb 02 2018, 01:44

@Imateria wrote:
Personally I'd prefer the Splinter Cannon to be Assault 6 rather than Rapid Fire, we'd still be able to use it after advancing as well which kind of fits with us being a fast army.

Mostly though, I'd like to see the set value wounding roll of poison removed entirely. Rifles would be S3, Assault 2 re-rolling 1's to wound, Carbines would be the same but Assault 4 and Cannons would be Assault 6, S4, AP-1. Weapons that currently wound on a 2+ would be changed to a flat re-roll all failed wounds.

But... that is flat WORSE against everything with a Toughness better than 3!

T1: 97.222%
T2: 77.777%
T3: 58.333%
T4-5: 38.888%
T6+: 18.1313%

And it’s worse against T2-3 than S4.

That would be giving ourselves, an at least partially elite army, slightly improved lasguns.
With our cheapest Splinter Vector being 7 points per rifle, even with 24” Assault 2, we do not have the numbers to make lasguns effective.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Fri Feb 02 2018, 02:14

Wounding on 4+ is fine.
The fact that it's our only viable anti infantry option is what kills it. If Shredders, Liquifiers, Wyches, ect could pull their weight it wouldn't be an issue.

Likewise, Darklight is fine. If Haywire and Heat Lances and Talos could help with high toughness vehicles then it wouldn't be an issue.
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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Tue Feb 06 2018, 18:21

@FuelDrop wrote:
Wounding on 4+ is fine.
The fact that it's our only viable anti infantry option is what kills it. If Shredders, Liquifiers, Wyches, ect could pull their weight it wouldn't be an issue.

Likewise, Darklight is fine. If Haywire and Heat Lances and Talos could help with high toughness vehicles then it wouldn't be an issue.

@FuelDrop I think you're totally correct.  From a balance perspective Splinter weaponry need not change at all, just our tools for dealing with hordes.  However, if you'll read my original post (in the spoiler) my aim was to address a fluff/reality disjunction (pun intended) about how poison works, and I stick with my gun (intended, again) that splinter weaponry should have a normal (but high) S value which is reduced to 1 against vehicles, and that this would solve our horde problems since we'd be wounding low T models on better than 4+.  But, yeah, in my fandex I'm improving all of our other tools to deal with low T models as well (Shredder is simply Assault 4, but still 5 points).  

Here's my original post:


I'm elated that my original post generated 2+ pages of discussion, and I have loved every post, thank you to everyone who has participated and read.  Please let me know if you have any wholly new idea for a poison game mechanic or suggestions as to what price I should make poison weapons in my fandex.  Of course, please message me if you have any unrelated fandex suggestions or a fandex of your own you'd like me to read.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Tue Feb 06 2018, 23:18

@Tounguekutter wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
Wounding on 4+ is fine.
The fact that it's our only viable anti infantry option is what kills it. If Shredders, Liquifiers, Wyches, ect could pull their weight it wouldn't be an issue.

Likewise, Darklight is fine. If Haywire and Heat Lances and Talos could help with high toughness vehicles then it wouldn't be an issue.

@FuelDrop I think you're totally correct.  From a balance perspective Splinter weaponry need not change at all, just our tools for dealing with hordes.  However, if you'll read my original post (in the spoiler) my aim was to address a fluff/reality disjunction (pun intended) about how poison works, and I stick with my gun (intended, again) that splinter weaponry should have a normal (but high) S value which is reduced to 1 against vehicles, and that this would solve our horde problems since we'd be wounding low T models on better than 4+.  But, yeah, in my fandex I'm improving all of our other tools to deal with low T models as well (Shredder is simply Assault 4, but still 5 points).  

Here's my original post:


I'm elated that my original post generated 2+ pages of discussion, and I have loved every post, thank you to everyone who has participated and read.  Please let me know if you have any wholly new idea for a poison game mechanic or suggestions as to what price I should make poison weapons in my fandex.  Of course, please message me if you have any unrelated fandex suggestions or a fandex of your own you'd like me to read.

How about S3 (4 for cannons) rerolling failed vs non vehicles?
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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Feb 07 2018, 00:51

A little mathhammer says S3 w/ a re-roll is actually worse than S6 against all targets less than T12 and not less than T3.  An additional drawback to the re-roll mechanic is that after that re-roll you can't add another re-roll on top of that (not that I'm using CP re-roll a lot on my splinter stuff but... it's still a drawback).  However, one could then justify that it would be cheaper, perhaps cheap enough not to change that sweet, sweet 0 points cost for most Splinter weapons, I can see that being desirable.  I don't mean to pile on the criticism, but it would also slow the game down, as you'd basically be adding an extra layer of rolling to most of your squads' shooting.  I appreciate the input though.

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Last edited by Tounguekutter on Wed Feb 07 2018, 00:55; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : addendum to what S6 is good against)
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Feb 07 2018, 01:56

Well one suggestion I made earlier was S5 (like tau with less range) but wounding vehicles on 6's.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Feb 07 2018, 02:46

@FuelDrop if GW asked you to write the Codex, you would prefer S5 (but no increase in points) over S6 (but a slight increase in points)? I've been toying with this idea.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Feb 07 2018, 02:59

@Tounguekutter
I would prefer really devastating weaponry and a points increase.

Alternative flat wounding model: 2+ vs infantry, 4+ vs monsters, 6+ vs vehicles.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Sun Feb 11 2018, 23:23


An army trait that ups poison to wounding on 3+ OR allows a reroll to wound of some type.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Mon Feb 12 2018, 00:19

@FuelDrop wrote:
@Tounguekutter
I would prefer really devastating weaponry and a points increase.

Twisted Evil oh yeah!


@FuelDrop wrote:
Alternative flat wounding model: 2+ vs infantry, 4+ vs monsters, 6+ vs vehicles.

I would definitely consider this to be an improvement to the rules in the index, and it would preserve an element of "better against the toughest" quality that poisoned currently has, however, such an improvement would require an appropriate points increase, and would thus leave Kabalite infantry disadvantaged point for point against T3 foes.  Basically, any system which sticks to a fixed value will always favor shooting at the highest value for the fixed number.  As it stands, poisoned weaponry becomes exponentially more efficient against higher and higher toughness targets because of that fixed value thing - which is fine if you want a monster killer squad.  However, I am trying to re-write the rules so that poison is efficient against low T enemies as well, and the simplest way I know to do that is assigning each weapon a strength value (in the case of shooting) or a strength bonus (in the case of melee).  The strength value or strength bonus representing the strength of the poison. I would prefer a flat strength to the +1 to wound method because the +1 to wound method still favors targeting high T enemies like a fixed value system, albeit to a lesser degree, so it ameliorates the problem but does not solve it. Essentially, the +1 to wound system lies somewhere in-between the all-rounder system of a normal strength value and a fixed value system in terms of encouraging the player to target high T enemies.

To wrap up a discussion that I sense is beginning to become circular, here are the options as have been discussed thus far:

1) Maintain a fixed value system but improve options for dealing with hordes
2) Change to a strength value mechanic but add +1 to Wound
3) Change to a strength value mechanic

The only other option I haven't heard yet would be one in which the player is rewarded for targeting low T models which could also make sense if one assumes the poison works exponentially worse against tougher targets. E.g. against T3 or below wounding on a 2+, T4 wounding on a 4+, T5+ wounding on a 6+. Somehow I don't think this would appeal to many players, but it is arguably worse and so maybe it would hold appeal if it meant that splinter weapons got cheaper (pistols and rifles become -1 points and cannons become 5 points).

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Mon Feb 12 2018, 00:51

So thought: Strength 3, +2 to wound vs non-vehicles for rifles and pistols. S4, +2 v nonvehicles for carbines,  Strength 5 +2 to wound vs non-vehicles for cannons.

Rifles Vs:
T3 or below: 2+
T4-5: 3+
T6+: 4+

Carbines:
T4 or below: 2+
T5-7: 3+
T8+: 4+

Cannons:
T5 or below: 2+
T6-9: 3+
T10+: 4+
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Mon Feb 12 2018, 06:45

@FuelDrop wrote:
So thought: Strength 3, +2 to wound vs non-vehicles for rifles and pistols. S4, +2 v nonvehicles for carbines,  Strength 5 +2 to wound vs non-vehicles for cannons.

Rifles Vs:
T3 or below: 2+
T4-5: 3+
T6+: 4+

Carbines:
T4 or below: 2+
T5-7: 3+
T8+: 4+

Cannons:
T5 or below: 2+
T6-9: 3+
T10+: 4+

You realise you just gave our riffles str 6 our carbines s8 and our cannons s10 with the additional rule that we can never wound on worse that a 4+.
Our basic scourge would double in cost (since it effectively becomes the assault 3 s8+ gunner)

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Mon Feb 12 2018, 07:30

High strength without AP and that doesn't work on vehicles is not exactly a game breaker.
And it's not like the enemy will have that much trouble mowing us down in return...

Edit: thats the thing people forget. We are wounding SM on 3+, but they are doing the same to us and we have worse saves.
We wound Guard on 2+ and they wound us on 4+, but with orders they can get 4 shots for every one of ours.
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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Mon Feb 12 2018, 07:41

The biggest problem I can see with that is that it'll make it really hard to get CMPs(assuming we got soem juicy strategems). Well i guess wyches could still be cheap.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Mon Feb 12 2018, 09:34

Let's look at it like this.
Say that out super duper upgraded kabalites have their dakka guns, and for kicks lets give them grenades too! Hell, let's go completely overboard and give them a full combat loadout: Splinter Rifle, Splinter Pistol, Darklight Grenade.

And let's say that's going to set you back 10 points.

Let us compare to the humble Chaos Space Marine, who weighs in at 13 points.
He has power armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, and Krak grenades.
He also has +1 S +1 T on the Kabalite.

Now let's put them in a gun fight at rapid fire range.

our 10 point Kabalite is hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's, and the Space Marine has a 3+ save. This is noticeably better than at present, but not game breakingly so.
The 13 point space marine is hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's, and our Kabalite has a 5+/6+++ to survive the boltgun.

Not exactly a game breaking change. The Space Marine still wins the shootout or the melee, odds on.

So lets look at what it does vs Guard.

For this out guardsman will have one buddy, and some guy barking orders at him.
our Kabalite shoots twice, hitting on 3's wounding on 2's, while the guardsmen have a 5+ save.
The pair of guardsmen, however, are putting out 8! shots between the pair of them. Hitting on 4's, wounding on 4's, and up against a 5+ 6+++ save.

So on average the Kab is killing (4/3 x 5/6 x 2/3) = 40/54 dead guardsmen
The guard for the same points are putting out (4/2 x 1/2 x 4/6 x 5/6) 80/144, or 30/54 dead Kabalites. This becomes 60/54 dead kabalites with orders.

Honestly, I am not seeing that as being too massive a difference, given that the guardsmen have an extra wound between them.


EDIT: The thing that makes High Strength Weapons scary in this edition are: 1) Good AP. 2) High damage. 3) the ability to wound heavy vehicles.

the proposed splinter weapon build lacks all of the above, and are thus "friendly" high strength weapons. Even against most monsters, a Darklance is still going to be more cost effective than a Splinter Cannon due to the AP and high damage.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Mon Feb 12 2018, 09:54

Yeah I agree against normal infantry it is not that bad if you also increase the price of kabalites by 50%.
But even then when you shoot at an ork biker. you deal double the damage of the marine. The marine also has roughly twice the survivability.
So I am not saying this can't be done.
I am just saying in that case just count the poison as s6/8/10 against nonvehicles and not make it a complicated rule. And then you realise I made it worse than your version and everyone will cry hell and high water since our normal dudes just got better guns than the tau.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Mon Feb 12 2018, 10:02

Better basic guns vs non-vehicles than the tau basic guns, but with shorter range and the tau basic infantry wounding our transports on 4+? Not really that bad a tradeoff, since vehicles are pretty common and wounding them on 6's limits our scope greatly. We kill stuff good, but we cannot just spam splinter and expect to win because splinter is absolutely useless against vehicles, while Tau pulse weapons are pretty solid en mass against them.

Wounding Vehicles on 6+ is a non-trivial tradeoff.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Feb 15 2018, 16:13

what about a +1 against troop choices instead of infantry keyword?

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Feb 15 2018, 16:21

@Barrywise wrote:
what about a +1 against troop choices instead of infantry keyword?

That would make 0 logic for me, and feel very "meta game". Can you explain your idea ?

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Feb 15 2018, 22:57

Against armor value 7+, poison wounds on a 2+
Against armor value 5-6, poison wounds on a 3+
Against armor value 3-4, poison wounds on a 4+
Against armor value 2, poison wounds on a 5+

This is against their armor before cover is added. They would get the bonus for their save, but not when rolling to wound.

Wounds vehicles on a 6+ always
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Mon Mar 12 2018, 03:11

There need to be more Poisoned 2+ to 4+, with vehicles only on a 6, like it was in the last book. So normal splinter should be 4s, Cannons should be 3s, our crazier stuff being 2s.

Also, rolls of poison on a 6 should inflict either mortal wounds or d3 damage on the most severe of our poisons (like Necrotoxin, Flesh Gauntlets or Venom Blades).

A lot of DE character has been taken away like Lethal Dose, Concussive, Instant Death, Lance, the list goes on and on. DE is an army of keywords, all of which are supposed to do nasty things to the enemy. Right now, we have none of that character in the army at all.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Mon Mar 12 2018, 10:01

Lance has been transformed into +1 AP on every lance weapon, and i'm happy with that Smile



Something that would be interesting : Splinter rifles deal mortal wounds on a 7+, Splinter cannons deal mortal wounds on a 6+. Then you'd have abilities (like Lhaemeans auras) to give +1 to wound to poisoned weaponry.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Mon Mar 12 2018, 11:04

Poison weapons deal +1d3 wounds on a to wound roll of 6.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Mon Mar 12 2018, 19:44

What about rolls to hit of 6 automatically have -1 rend, and poison on a 2+?
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Tue Mar 13 2018, 04:16

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@Barrywise wrote:
what about a +1 against troop choices instead of infantry keyword?

That would make 0 logic for me, and feel very "meta game". Can you explain your idea ?

Ah just saw this now, sorry. I was just thinking of how to make our troops a little more effective against hordes. But that rule wouldn't make sense on why it wounds a Tac Marine on a 3+ but a devastator on a 4+

I think the 2+ against Infantry and 4+ against monsters would make the most sense fluff wise. Game Balance wise is a maybe. In Rapid fire range, for 7 points, each kabalite would be causing ~0.75 wounds to guardsmen. I know its a faster and killier edition, but 2 turns to make back their points in shooting seems a little too powerful. It would be 0.4 wounds on a marine as well and that's roughly 3 turns to double their point value.

Instead, having seen the new Codex for the Necrons, I'd prefer, as I think someone else mentioned, a -1AP value when we're within rapid fire range or something, still wounding on a 4+. that would bring it down to 0.55 wounds on guardsmen and 0.33 on marines. It'd be a half decent stratagem, especially if it applied to a transport and it's occupants, otherwise, as an army-wide buff that'd be pretty powerful. Currently Our Kabs are at 0.44 wounds on guardsmen and 0.22 on marines. (Once again, Rapid Fire range, 2 shots)

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