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 Reworking the Poison Mechanic

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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Mon Jan 29 2018, 16:28

For poisoned shooting it is only exploding hits on a 3+. Although I bemoan the loss of consistency, I see how it needs a change for melee weapons.

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Last edited by Tounguekutter on Mon Jan 29 2018, 16:33; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Tried to delete)
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Mon Jan 29 2018, 19:27

I say keep the splinter weapons at S1, but bring back the ability to reroll to-wound rolls when Poisoned strength is greater than or equal to target toughness. That being said, I'll throw out another idea.

So Poison is good against Elites/MC's with high toughness and weak against low T hordes. Y'all might hate this but what about switching that, with the idea of rolling based off of the target's Toughness?

Toughness 3 needs a 3+ to wound, toughness 4 is 4+, etc etc, with a maximum of needing a 6+ to wound. Naturally this means our Kabals won't be good against MC's but honestly, we already have Dark Lances for that, so let me then introduce two stratagems, both 1 CP.

Debilitating Poison:
 

Tailored Poison:
 

If you used both of those CP's together and Splinter Racks are re-introduced to reroll to-hits. That would be a nice way to boost our damage. Especially if you factor in all the ways we can combine all of that. Wyches shoot in, use the stratagems. +1S wyches, -1 toughness enemies, +1 to wound rolls, +1 to hit from PFP with reroll 1's to-hit from Succubus. It could be juicy.

*edit* I wanted to know how juicy it was, so I did the math. Against Space Marines, 20 Wyches attacks would result in 16 wounds, which is 5.4 dead Marines. That's pretty dang juicy. Especially since it could be a repeat performance in your enemy's fight phase.

Also, that sad moment that you remember Wracks are Strength 3, and not 4.

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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Mon Jan 29 2018, 22:10

@Barrywise wrote:

Toughness 3 needs a 3+ to wound, toughness 4 is 4+, etc etc, with a maximum of needing a 6+ to wound. Naturally this means our Kabals won't be good against MC's but honestly, we already have Dark Lances for that

Hate to be that guy, but that would be the same as just making poisoned S4. Space Marines are literally the standard for the wound system.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Mon Jan 29 2018, 22:15

@Tounguekutter wrote:
@Barrywise wrote:

Toughness 3 needs a 3+ to wound, toughness 4 is 4+, etc etc, with a maximum of needing a 6+ to wound. Naturally this means our Kabals won't be good against MC's but honestly, we already have Dark Lances for that

Hate to be that guy, but that would be the same as just making poisoned S4.  Space Marines are literally the standard for the wound system.

It would actually be worse, since it would, no doubt, continue to suck at wounding vehicles.


Another alternative would be to make the poison a "reverse grav-cannon".

6+ armor, 2+ to wound
5+ save => 3+ to wound
4+ save => 4+ to wound
etc.

(not factoring Inv saves). Not sure how useful that would be, though ^^

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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Tue Jan 30 2018, 05:31

@Mppqlmd wrote:


Another alternative would be to make the poison a "reverse grav-cannon".

6+ armor, 2+ to wound
5+ save => 3+ to wound
4+ save => 4+ to wound
etc.

(not factoring Inv saves). Not sure how useful that would be, though ^^

This reminded me of one idea I considered which was to have the targeted units roll for armor saves first before rolling to wound, then the wound roll could be purely the affect of the poison on the body of the target. I threw out the idea because I felt like it wasn't true to the spirit of the base rules, kind of like that Bell of Lost Souls article on how alternative actions would kill 40k. Ultimately I rather like my original idea: the strength of the weapon represents the strength of the poison and it relates perfectly to the toughness of the target being the target's resistance to the poison. It's streamlined and it leaves the rules writer to add granularity to the strength of poisoned weapons. For me that is good because it can then represent that Coven poisons have a slight edge over Kabal stuff, Haemonculi weapons most of all, etc.

Another, separate issue is that based on how splinter weapons are described described, it makes sense that their rules be different from melee poisoned weapons, which are deadly both by the physical cuts, lashes, and electrocutions that deliver the poison as well as the poison themselves. I am torn over whether or not to make the way splinter and melee weapons treated the same rules wise, or create a separate rule for melee weapons and if so what. What makes the most logical sense to me is that each hit generates a second hit which is then rolled to wound for separately, but can't spill over to another model. Obviously this is way too bloated, as resolving the attacks of even a small unit of Wracks would be Agonising.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Tue Jan 30 2018, 08:22

Tormented Screams (Splinter Weapons): Casualties inflicted by Splinter Weapons are doubled for the purposes of the Morale phase, do to the horrifying screams caused by the weapons sadistic nature. Additionally, units targeted by Splinter weapons must roll a die at the start of the morale phase. On a 1-3 it ignores any special rules it possesses or is granted by a nearby character or psychic power that benefits that unit in the morale phase until the end of the current phase.

Horrific Agonies (Coven weapons and Agonizers): A model armed with a poisoned weapon can choose to use the poison wound value or get +1 to wound based on their strength value, whichever is more beneficial. Additionally, these weapons deal +1 wound on a to wound roll of 6+
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angelrei
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Tue Jan 30 2018, 08:54

Maybe we might get a Kabal or such trait in the new codex that gives us a different poison that hits on 3+ instead of 4+ on units with T3 or less but anything with higher T would become 5+. Would make taking different kabals as a different detachment sound quite fluffy too with the two Kabal's working together during the raid since its really the only time they would work together.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Tue Jan 30 2018, 16:33

@FuelDrop wrote:
Tormented Screams (Splinter Weapons): Casualties inflicted by Splinter Weapons are doubled for the purposes of the Morale phase, do to the horrifying screams caused by the weapons sadistic nature. Additionally, units targeted by Splinter weapons must roll a die at the start of the morale phase. On a 1-3 it ignores any special rules it possesses or is granted by a nearby character or psychic power that benefits that unit in the morale phase until the end of the current phase.

Horrific Agonies (Coven weapons and Agonizers): A model armed with a poisoned weapon can choose to use the poison wound value or get +1 to wound based on their strength value, whichever is more beneficial. Additionally, these weapons deal +1 wound on a to wound roll of 6+

Tormented Screams sounds like a great way to represent the Kabal of the Broken Sigil's famed terror tactics.

Horrific Agonies would be very powerful.  For clarity, you might want to change the wording on the last sentence to something like "Additionally, whenever you roll a 6+ to Wound with this weapon, increase its Damage characteristic by 1."

@angelrei I'd be happily surprised if we got any kabal traits at all. As of now I predict ours will be much like the daemon codex only instead of 4 gods we'll have Kabals, Cults, and Covens. Here's hoping I'm wrong!

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Last edited by Tounguekutter on Tue Jan 30 2018, 16:36; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Wanted to avoid double posting)
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Tue Jan 30 2018, 18:38

Quote :
I'd be happily surprised if we got any kabal traits at all. As of now I predict ours will be much like the daemon codex only instead of 4 gods we'll have Kabals, Cults, and Covens. Here's hoping I'm wrong!

Could we all agree that Chaos got more than the love it deserves in this edition ? Wink

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Tue Jan 30 2018, 19:09

The more I think about it, the more I am actually In love with the "+1 to wound on non-vehicle enemies".

Suddenly, Wracks wound GEQ on a 3+, Grotesques wound MEQ on a 2+ and Wyches also get a nice small boost againt GEQ as well (assuming Splinter Pistols are S3). Not to mention the that vehicles are wounded on a 5+.
It keeps the essence of poison weaponry, but add a lot of versatility that we have been lacking for so long.

You only really lose out on T6+ units, but usually they have a high enough save to make splinter fire not worth using in the first place. Some juicy targets are suddenly less vulnerable, but I think it is a good trade all in all.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Jan 31 2018, 04:16

I'm in agreement with the Strange Dark One here, that actually seems like the simplest system that still gets across the whole 'poison' dynamic.

Assuming Rifles, Pistols, Pods and Carbines are S3 whilst Cannons are S4...

T : Wound roll
T1: 2+/2+
T2: 2+/2+
T3: 3+/2+
T4: 4+/3+
T5: 4+/4+
T6: 5+/4+
T7: 5+/4+
T8: 5+/5+

Etcetera etcetera...

Gives us Bolter efficiency against T1-4, 6-7 and a boost against T5, 8+. Whilst the Cannon keeps on trucking right up until T8. It also gives us Guard efficiency against VEHICLES.

Fair trade? Maybe.


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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Jan 31 2018, 13:21

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I am actually In love with the "+1 to wound on non-vehicle enemies".

Suddenly, Wracks wound GEQ on a 3+, Grotesques wound MEQ on a 2+ and Wyches also get a nice small boost againt GEQ as well (assuming Splinter Pistols are S3). Not to mention the that vehicles are wounded on a 5+.
It keeps the essence of poison weaponry, but add a lot of versatility that we have been lacking for so long.

You only really lose out on T6+ units, but usually they have a high enough save to make splinter fire not worth using in the first place. Some juicy targets are suddenly less vulnerable, but I think it is a good trade all in all.

As I have mentioned before I have been struggling with how one would best represent both the physical attack of a poisoned weapon as well as the poison itself.  I think +1 to Wound (or +2 for Shaimeshi and Venom blades) does this the best, but it leaves Splinter weapons behind if I try and keep things consistent.  Fluff-wise Splinter weaponry does very little physical damage to their targets, so I would say nothing higher than S2 would be appropriate.  Adding just +1 to that would actually make us worse against T3+.  Adding +2 to wound for S2 weapons would basically just make it so that against T3 targets are 3+ to wound and everything else is 4+.  It is still an improvement though (we wound Ork Grots on 2+ lol! ).

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Jan 31 2018, 18:43

I don't see how s2 with +1 to wound is good at all. In fact except against t2 and 1 targets, it's basically just the same thing we have now, while being worse against t6 and above. +2 seems solid though, wounding everything in the t3-5 range on a +3 is nice, while still wounding tougher monsters on a +4. Unfortunately not something I se GW implementing though.

Another idea would just be to give us the old shred rule on poison weapons, making us far more effective against everything but again I don't see GW implementing that either.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Jan 31 2018, 19:47

If you really want to have a good balance of fluff and balance, the current solution with a straight 4+ on wounding is the best option.

After all, the toxins are so potent that they work on small and big sized enemies equally. In fluff terms, you should be wounding on a straight 2+, actually (but balance yada, yada so it's a 4+). If we go further, AP-2 is not unreasonable either if you consider that Splinter weapons are portable railguns that hit enemies at supersonic speed.

There is no way to make that even remotely balanced if you take fluff into account.

Quote :
Splinter weaponry does very little physical damage to their targets...

The same could be said about the Guard S3 Flashlights lol!.
But I suppose that joke worked better in earlier editions.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Wed Jan 31 2018, 19:55

What Splinter Rifles really need is to either get Splinter Racks back or either RF2 or and increase in RF range to 18 inches.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Feb 01 2018, 00:24

I am honestly fine with just 4+ on everything provided we can output enough volume of fire for it to matter, and that we have specialist weapons that can fill the gaps it leaves.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Feb 01 2018, 06:51

@FuelDrop wrote:
I am honestly fine with just 4+ on everything provided we can output enough volume of fire for it to matter, and that we have specialist weapons that can fill the gaps it leaves.

This.
The main problem is not the splinter weaponry. My issue seems to be that we have nothing but splinter and darklight at the moment, buying "better" guns is right now worse than having another gun.
Scourges are the worst example of this, because they do not need transports.
Give us some feasable melee options against low t hordes and make our special weapons for their damage comparible in price to lances and the whole thing will fall into place.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Feb 01 2018, 13:04

They can fix it by making shredders our flame throwers. D6 auto hits S4 (or something similar: S2 and S4 against infantry or S3 but reduces movement stats by 2. Stuff like that.)
But if a shredder born squad can dish out 4D6 auto hits with a reasonable strength, suddenly, we dont suffer against hordes anymore.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Feb 01 2018, 14:13

The only thing splinter rifles really need is a secondary buff coming with the addition of Splinter Racks and Auras/force multipliers from Stratagems, Doctrines and HQs.

Splinter cannons, on the other hand, need a modification in their shooting archetype (need to become Assault 4/6, or something like that).

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Feb 01 2018, 15:10

Rapid Fire 4 for the Cannons?

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Feb 01 2018, 16:03

@Ikol wrote:
Rapid Fire 4 for the Cannons?

Rapid Fire 6 wouldn't be out of line with other heavy anti-infantry weapons, especially if we're still wounding everything on 4+ with 0 AP.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Feb 01 2018, 16:57

I think rapid fire 6 might be slightly over the top for the amount of cannons we can field.
Rapid fire 4 would be ok, or a massive points drop (since it is roughly our equavalent of a the heavy bolter, also put it at around 8 points, the damage against marines is the same if we are in rapid fire range, slightly more against guard but only half of that when outside rapid fire range)
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Feb 01 2018, 20:57

Considering you could Twin link it with racks, rapid fire 6 seems completly broken.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Feb 01 2018, 22:51

I think that Splinter Cannons should stay Rapid Fire 3, but be poisoned (2+). Space Marines can field entire squads with poisoned 2+ ranged weapons, the masters of poison should have access to SOMETHING with comparable power.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Feb 01 2018, 23:06

Personally I'd prefer the Splinter Cannon to be Assault 6 rather than Rapid Fire, we'd still be able to use it after advancing as well which kind of fits with us being a fast army.

Mostly though, I'd like to see the set value wounding roll of poison removed entirely. Rifles would be S3, Assault 2 re-rolling 1's to wound, Carbines would be the same but Assault 4 and Cannons would be Assault 6, S4, AP-1. Weapons that currently wound on a 2+ would be changed to a flat re-roll all failed wounds.
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