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 Reworking the Poison Mechanic

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Fri Mar 16 2018, 00:13

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@HERO wrote:
Am I the only one here thinking that the primary use of a 5-man Warrior unit is to carry the Blaster for 50 points for the squad?  I mean, the Poison shots are nice, but hardly the reason I take them.

Btw, their use is infinitely more impactful in a Venom, which is a 16" Open-top platform that's actually very durable for its price.  Warriors by themselves are meh, but in a Venom, they're very good.

If i wanted blasters, i'd pay for blasterborns or scourges. But i consider blasters to be overpriced and vastly inferior to Dark Lances...

You like doing a lot of 1:1 apples:oranges comparisons don't you?

While I can see Blasters maybe coming down in price, the fact that they're plentiful and still offer your cheap Warriors with a sizeable punching power is a good thing.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Fri Mar 16 2018, 06:15

Well yeah, blasters and dark lance are the exact same weapon. Except for 5pts more, you gain twice the range, twice the damage (at the cost of Heavy weaponry, agreed).

I've played blasters in 8th edition. I've not been impressed by their damage output. So I decided lances were all I need (this sounds like a pop song).

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Fri Mar 16 2018, 06:57

I've argeed with you in other threads about blasters going to rapid fire or even assualt 2 damage flat 2. Getting an extra shot on them would be huge.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Fri Mar 16 2018, 08:25

I think the profile of the blaster is not the biggest issue, the problem is their price.
Sure they could be made into fusion guns or short ranged lances with d6 damage or short ranged dissies with multiple shots and high ap dealing a few wounds.
But right now the major problem is that we have the option of a short range d3 damage weapon of for only a few more points a heavy d6 weapon. Despite the penalty to hit the lance will deal more damage against nearly everything.
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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Fri Mar 16 2018, 08:33

I run blasters but they are expensive for what they do. With the exception of Dark lances I feel like our special weapons are all either overpriced or underwhelming. Or both. Blasters and splinter cannons would be fine with a price drop, or need a boost if they stay 15pts each. Haywire, shredders, heat lances just need to be rethought.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Fri Mar 16 2018, 09:40

@yellabelly wrote:
I run blasters but they are expensive for what they do. With the exception of Dark lances I feel like our special weapons are all either overpriced or underwhelming. Or both. Blasters and splinter cannons would be fine with a price drop, or need a boost if they stay 15pts each. Haywire, shredders, heat lances just need to be rethought.

Couldn't agree more. For an ancient race that forsook its psychic might and embraced technology we seem about as technologically advanced as a Sinclair ZX Spectrum! When other races with far less advanced tech are out there shooting weapons with 20+ shots at decent range, S and AP, our biggest rate of fire is Rapid Fire 3 on a weapon that has no AP but struggles to damage hordes (which are surely its intended target). Evil or Very Mad

If I could direct your attention for a moment to the Assault Cannon - Heavy 6, 24", S6, AP-1, D1. For just 7 points more than our Splinter Cannon they get an (effective) +6" range, better wounding on anything less than T7 and AP-1. And there are twin-linked versions for double the fun. Our only twin-linked Splinter Cannon is on a supposedly melee unit (Talos).

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Fri Mar 16 2018, 10:03

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@yellabelly wrote:
I run blasters but they are expensive for what they do. With the exception of Dark lances I feel like our special weapons are all either overpriced or underwhelming. Or both. Blasters and splinter cannons would be fine with a price drop, or need a boost if they stay 15pts each. Haywire, shredders, heat lances just need to be rethought.

Couldn't agree more. For an ancient race that forsook its psychic might and embraced technology we seem about as technologically advanced as a Sinclair ZX Spectrum! When other races with far less advanced tech are out there shooting weapons with 20+ shots at decent range, S and AP, our biggest rate of fire is Rapid Fire 3 on a weapon that has no AP but struggles to damage hordes (which are surely its intended target). Evil or Very Mad

If I could direct your attention for a moment to the Assault Cannon - Heavy 6, 24", S6, AP-1, D1. For just 7 points more than our Splinter Cannon they get an (effective) +6" range, better wounding on anything less than T7 and AP-1. And there are twin-linked versions for double the fun. Our only twin-linked Splinter Cannon is on a supposedly melee unit (Talos).

We always have to trade strength for rate of fire, something which no other army is limited by. Our vehicle mounted weapons are the same as our hand held weapons, something which no other vehicle based army is limited by (not counting forgeworld). The only exceptions to these rules are the Void Ravens, which are expensive in both cash and points and are hardly must takes.

I would really like to have our special weapons WORK. I also want our rather hefty tradeoffs in the form of low armour across the board, no psyker powers, and virtually no buffs, to be repaid in the form of having the awesome weapons our fluff promises.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Fri Mar 16 2018, 11:24

@HERO wrote:
Am I the only one here thinking that the primary use of a 5-man Warrior unit is to carry the Blaster for 50 points for the squad?  I mean, the Poison shots are nice, but hardly the reason I take them.

Btw, their use is infinitely more impactful in a Venom, which is a 16" Open-top platform that's actually very durable for its price.  Warriors by themselves are meh, but in a Venom, they're very good.

For a long time I was thinking that too. I tried several builds with Blasters in Venoms or 2 Blasters in a Raider. Blasters have a satisfying feeling to them and I loved using them against MEQ.

But in the end you pay 22 for a Blaster (Kabalite + Weapon) and if you do the math you'll see that Blasters dont do much that 3 Kabalites couldn't do either (even more so in Rapid Fire range). And against GEQ and invul save enemies the Blaster is just dead weight.

For some time I was thinking that the extra firepower was worth costing more (because it means more damage output at your area of choice), but you won't end up doing substantially more damage because it is difficult to find the perfect targets to begin with. Initially I was using Blasters like in 7th edition, which was anti MEQ and TEQ, but I really dislike the D3 damage. Against MEQ it is overpriced overkill and against TEQ it is too much of a gamble.

Honestly, I think the best profile for the weapon would be: Assault 2, 18", S8, AP-4, 1 damage for about 8 points. Or maybe D3 damage for a higher price.

I found that, if you have the need for Blasters, you'll find yourself having much more success by fielding Disintegrator Cannons on another unit instead. The 15 points will sum up one way or another and there simply are better ways to invest it.

Occassionally, I'll take a Blaster in a Venom but that is only if I happen to have some spare points.

Max out Darklight/Disintegrators on our dedicated gunships and leave the Splinter Fire as cheap and redundant as possible. That's what I am currently having good success with.

Edit: Honestly, I'd much rather see the Blaster being replaced by a Disintegrator Carbine. Assault 3, S5, AP-3 for about 10 points.

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Colonel Cabbage
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Fri Mar 16 2018, 16:19

Splinter Cannons need a buff and a discount. There arent actually many reasons to use them now.

Warriors: Most people take 2 units of 5 for 2 blasters rather than a unit of 10 to unlock the Cannon. And even if they do take 10, its probably for the DL
Venom: 15 points to go from 10 shots to 12 shots is ridiculous.
Razorwing: Pretty much the same as above, but more useful for the range.
Talos: Not a great unit anyway, and cannons come stock, so not much to say here.
Scourges: These are probably the best use case scenario for cannons as they can drop into RF range, and they are our weapon specialists. But, and this is a big but, buying an extra scourge is 1 point cheaper than buying a cannon. For 14 points with the extra scourge you get 18" Assault 6 and 2 wounds, versus 15 points for 36" RF 3 and 1 wound with the cannon. Clearly buying more scourges is better, and the range doesn't matter because if you are that far away they should be carrying DLs.

Whatever we do with the cannons, the priority must be that they are more cost effective than just another Scourge, because Scourges with Cannons should be one of our main anti horde units.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Fri Mar 16 2018, 16:25

I'm not arguing that Blasters are overpriced, but I still believe that 50 bucks for a Warrior unit in a 80 point Venom is by far one of the more effective troop options in the game Smile
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Colonel Cabbage
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Sun Mar 18 2018, 01:29

They are effective, but it represents 30% of the cost of the unit, which is kinda absurd, and in my mind the Venom should be close to 80 points with the extra cannon.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Sun Mar 18 2018, 01:37

Hmmm. Keep Splinter cannons 15 points, but make them assault 12 or Rapid Fire 6?

I would be down for that Smile
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Sun Mar 18 2018, 10:05

Assault 12 would be a LITTLE excessive.

6 would be reasonable.

Plus AP-1.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Sun Mar 18 2018, 10:27

We can't set a profile for the splinter cannon if we don't know if Racks will exist, and what they will do.

If we get (my everdream) splinter racks giving twin-linked, suddenly the splinter cannon becomes a tad more interesting.

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