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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Jan 25 2018, 19:51

I do not remember who said it or in which thread, but some time ago someone on here pointed out that the same dose of poison does not typically affect different targets the same way. For example, the minimum amount of cobra venom to kill an average human (mon-keigh) will not kill something as powerful as a gene-enhanced space marine. Yet, apart from armor this is the case in the current iteration of the mechanic.

On a seemingly un-related note it is the common assessment of many players that the Drukhari struggle against hordes of low-toughness infantry.

My suggested rules change would solve both problems, but I am worried it would create new ones. My suggestion is that the current poison mechanic for both shooting and melee be replaced by one in which the weapon does have a strength value - a relatively high one at that - but is reduced to strength 1 against vehicles. I have been thinking of something like S5 or 6 for most 4+ poison weapons and doubling that for 2+ weapons. Thoughts? Please and thank you.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Jan 25 2018, 20:02

Simply reroll to wound to target with Toughness of 3 or less and call it a day.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Jan 25 2018, 21:12

S3 for splinter rifles and carbines, S4 for splinter cannons.

+1 to wound against non-vehicles.

Boom.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Jan 25 2018, 21:22

If I had to rework it, I'd give it S4 and the rule to wounds non-vehicle on nothing worse than a 4+.
Say hello to 3+ against GEQ and 5+ to most vehicles.

But for the most part I think it is fine and we should have more means for focus fire. Things like re-rolling hits with Splinter Racks. The Archon having a Mark for Death ability that re-rolls wounds on an enemy unit each turn. Or Lhamaeans giving a +1 to wound to any non-vehicle unit using poison weaponry (or a mortal wound on a 6+).

For anti-geq we simply should have more valid weaponry, like usable Shredders, Liquifiers and be able to amass them. Making units like Wyches and Grotesques useful would also be a huge step into the right direction.

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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Jan 25 2018, 21:35

+1 to wound vs all targets, except vehicles that have a - 1 to wound. Base strength to suit the weapon.

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Ubernoob1
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Jan 25 2018, 21:56

@Mppqlmd wrote:
S3 for splinter rifles and carbines, S4 for splinter cannons.

+1 to wound against non-vehicles.

Boom.

I think I like this idea a lot. Very Happy
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Thu Jan 25 2018, 22:19

In this edition, i would do Strength 5 for rifles 6 for cannons, but wounds vehicles on 6+ regardless.
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DEfan
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Fri Jan 26 2018, 07:22

Poison currently frustrates the hell out of me. Here were my thoughts:-
The fluff says that we can bring down targets with withering hails of fire. I quite like the anecdote of poison and quantity above.
If one unit of up to T4 models is targetted by one DE unit, they are wounded with a -1 to cover, 4+ to wound. Acid rounds negate cover bonuses.
A second DE unit targetting the same unit gets the above benefits and +1 to wound.
A third DE unit and anymore thereafter get a further stackable +1 to wound.

T5+ models are wounded on a 5+ with stackable wound bonuses maxing at wounding on a 3+.

It's always been a struggle to combat horde armies. I think this would work!

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Fri Jan 26 2018, 08:05

@FuelDrop wrote:
In this edition, i would do Strength 5 for rifles 6 for cannons, but wounds vehicles on 6+ regardless.

Suddenly you made our poison weapons against most targets 3+ instead of 4+
This is to much I think.

I say screw ranged poison, leave it as it is. Although the s3 (4 cannon) and +1 to wound from mppqlmd sounds good as well.

When the wych cult units (and some covens) are viable we suddenly get a lot more units with a str value and thus we don't have to rely purely on splinter against hordes and the problem is not there anymore.

Splinter is sometimes frustrating, but that is mainly because right now our options besides splinter and darklight are so bad. I like that it actually means a balanced army not based around spamming 1 or 2 units is better then just spamming the best unit as often as you can.


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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Fri Jan 26 2018, 08:43

@|Meavar wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
In this edition, i would do Strength 5 for rifles 6 for cannons, but wounds vehicles on 6+ regardless.

Suddenly you made our poison weapons against most targets 3+ instead of 4+
This is to much I think.

I say screw ranged poison, leave it as it is. Although the s3 (4 cannon) and +1 to wound from mppqlmd sounds good as well.

When the wych cult units (and some covens) are viable we suddenly get a lot more units with a str value and thus we don't have to rely purely on splinter against hordes and the problem is not there anymore.

Splinter is sometimes frustrating, but that is mainly because right now our options besides splinter and darklight are so bad. I like that it actually means a balanced army not based around spamming 1 or 2 units is better then just spamming the best unit as often as you can.

So much this.
We have a nice arsenal at our disposal and I wish we could make full use of that.

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Pain Engine
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Fri Jan 26 2018, 09:00

I agree that it needs a rework, but I'm no rules designer. I'd probably give rifles s4 and cannons s5 ap -1, with the special rule that if they would wound a non-vehicle on a 5+ or worse, they instead wound on a 4+. They would also wound vehicles on sixes, if at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Sat Jan 27 2018, 08:25

Splinter weapons are fine. Just make the shredder a strength 4 or 5 D6 auto hits flamer. Then we have everything we need.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Sat Jan 27 2018, 10:30

@CptMetal wrote:
Splinter weapons are fine. Just make the shredder a strength 4 or 5 D6 auto hits flamer. Then we have everything we need.

IMO poison weaponry is a bit behind, but doesn't need a rework.

It needs in-game improvemnt mecanics, with Splinter racks and possibly Auras.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Sat Jan 27 2018, 10:34

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@CptMetal wrote:
Splinter weapons are fine. Just make the shredder a strength 4 or 5 D6 auto hits flamer. Then we have everything we need.

IMO poison weaponry is a bit behind, but doesn't need a rework.

It needs in-game improvemnt mecanics, with Splinter racks and possibly Auras.

This. Guard do just fine with Lasguns thanks to a combination of quantity and a ton of buffs. We have better guns, but half the quantity and no buffs.
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Sat Jan 27 2018, 11:11

My day-dream :

- Splinter racks giving Twin-Linked

- A Kabal Doctrine (Blackened Tear or Poisoned Tongue) giving +1 to wound for poisoned weaponry.

- Archon giving rerolls to hit for nearby Kabalites

- Lhaemean rerolling to wound for nearby poisoned weaponry. This is only if GW is feeling in a good mood.

A full squad of Kabalites in a raider could dish out 48 shots hitting on 3+ rerollable, wounding on 3+ rerollable. Of course, it will be expensive to field (a bit more than 300pts, if my math is correct), but it would FEEL good.

Now HERE I would feel like a pirate bringing destruction and fear upon lesser races, and not as a space hipster trying to justify his drug habits.

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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Sat Jan 27 2018, 11:24

The trouble with using re-roll auras etc to bring poison weapons up to speed is the fact they are already pretty decent vs high T targets, and a flat out boost would make them excellent against high T targets. It's vs the low T hordes that it feels lacking so boosts to poison would need to be aimed at that end of the spectrum to avoid making it OP at the other end.

A strength value and a +1 to wound mechanic does that nicely, imo. It also allows for making bigger guns more potent via higher S values. A -1 to wound vs vehicles would then ensure the same 2 point swing poison currently has.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Sat Jan 27 2018, 11:42

@Mppqlmd wrote:
My day-dream :

- Splinter racks giving Twin-Linked

- A Kabal Doctrine (Blackened Tear or Poisoned Tongue) giving +1 to wound for poisoned weaponry.

- Archon giving rerolls to hit for nearby Kabalites

- Lhaemean rerolling to wound for nearby poisoned weaponry. This is only if GW is feeling in a good mood.

A full squad of Kabalites in a raider could dish out 48 shots hitting on 3+ rerollable, wounding on 3+ rerollable. Of course, it will be expensive to field (a bit more than 300pts, if my math is correct), but it would FEEL good.

Now HERE I would feel like a pirate bringing destruction and fear upon lesser races, and not as a space hipster trying to justify his drug habits.

I wish the buffs in our armies would not resolve around auras, since that will go to waste with most of our units due to transports. I wish our buffs would reside around choosing a unit directly (allowing to target units on the board and inside transports).

Like the Lhaemean could simply choose 1 unit at the start of the game and provide a buff to this unit until the end.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Sat Jan 27 2018, 12:56

Quote :
I wish the buffs in our armies would not resolve around auras, since that will go to waste with most of our units due to transports.

That's a false problem. You just have to allow Raiders to project Auras for units inside.

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Sun Jan 28 2018, 03:57

@yellabelly wrote:
+1 to wound vs all targets, except vehicles that have a - 1 to wound. Base strength to suit the weapon.

I think I like this one the best, because of how it would effectively make it so that if we assume S3, then we're as much if not more efficient than Bolters for T1-T7, and finally at T8+ we break away and become progressively more efficient the tougher the target. Of course against vehicles we're much less effective than Bolters but that is to be expected. Most of the time we would still be looking for 4+, but if take aim at Gaunts, Guardsmen, or Gretchins, we'll be able to cull their numbers effectively.

@DEfan wrote:
Poison currently frustrates the hell out of me. Here were my thoughts:-
The fluff says that we can bring down targets with withering hails of fire. I quite like the anecdote of poison and quantity above.
If one unit of up to T4 models is targetted by one DE unit, they are wounded with a -1 to cover, 4+ to wound. Acid rounds negate cover bonuses.
A second DE unit targetting the same unit gets the above benefits and +1 to wound.
A third DE unit and anymore thereafter get a further stackable +1 to wound.

T5+ models are wounded on a 5+ with stackable wound bonuses maxing at wounding on a 3+.

It's always been a struggle to combat horde armies. I think this would work!

I really liked this idea as well, so look forward to it making its way into a stratagem as I work on those. Dark Eldar have such potential for stratagems, and I have in my head the concept for a ~deluxe~ library of stratagems in addition to the regular set of stratagems for abilities that magnify a particular power from the Power From Pain table (e.g. 6+++ goes to 4+++ for a turn for one unit) but in addition to spending a command point you have to have killed a unit nearby your intended recipient unit... more to follow!

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Sun Jan 28 2018, 19:21

If we're going to rework poison, then I would like to explore the potential for Close Combat situations as well. Coven need a boost. I'd say bring back the old rules with poison's rerolls when the user's strength is greater than the target's toughness.

in a nut shell:
Wracks reroll against Aeldari and Guardsmen
Grots reroll against basic Space Marines
Talos rerolls against everything else non vehicle.

Either that, or something to allow for more attacks, Grots + Talos are described as being able to cleave multiple guardsmen in a single blow.

Slight Sidenote:
 

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Sun Jan 28 2018, 19:34

@Barrywise wrote:
If we're going to rework poison, then I would like to explore the potential for Close Combat situations as well. Coven need a boost. I'd say bring back the old rules with poison's rerolls when the user's strength is greater than the target's toughness.

in a nut shell:
Wracks reroll against Aeldari and Guardsmen
Grots reroll against basic Space Marines
Talos rerolls against everything else non vehicle.

Either that, or something to allow for more attacks, Grots + Talos are described as being able to cleave multiple guardsmen in a single blow.

Slight Sidenote:
 
 

I think a good solution is to make the Strength value of the unit mean something again and make poison an extra ability of the weapon. Something such as MQQ suggested with +1 to wound for non-vehicle models or "against non-vehicle models this weapon wounds never worse than a 4+".

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Mon Jan 29 2018, 05:55

My take on poison (melee and shooting):

Shard (carbines) and Splinter weapons should be Strength 3 with Poisoned (X+) in the 'abilities' column.

In the 'Abilities' section at the start of the rules section in our codex have 'Poisoned Weapons' listed.

[b]POISONED WEAPONS[/b]:
 

This gives us either re-rolls of against T3 and below, whilst not reducing our efficiency against T4 and up in terms of shooting.

For Melee, it means our grots are able to actually use their Flesh Gauntlets against T4 and down, currently they're merely a detriment unless you're fishing for those 0.44444 mortal wounds a fight phase (0.55555 beyond turn 3).  And our Wracks become something other than walking 10-points-a-model bullet sponges.

The Agoniser becomes a smidge more powerful, whilst the Venom Blade remains virtually unaffected (for all the good it being available to 3 models does, 2 of which have better options and one of which should NEVER see melee).

Additionally, it throws in the option to fiddle with Strength values, the Cannon could shift up to Strength 4 (which would go some way towards mitigating its current uselessness), and maybe Shard Carbines could too, to make a show of being slightly more elite.

Also, as for Barry's side note... Warning: Wall of Text ahead:
 

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Last edited by Ikol on Mon Jan 29 2018, 06:24; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Avoiding a Double Post)
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Mon Jan 29 2018, 07:17

When's your interview with Duncan, The Emperor and Vect?

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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Mon Jan 29 2018, 15:44

Alternative idea:  "Unless the target is a Vehicle, each successful hit with this weapon becomes 3 successful hits." increasing the number of hits for more powerful poisoned weapons like shaimeshi blade.  Against horde armies it represents the many splinters of poisoned crystal shards, and for melee weapons change it to "Unless the target is a Vehicle, each successful hit with this weapon becomes 3 successful hits, however, the bearer may never slay more models than it has attacks in a single round of combat."

This would also help take down larger model with singular attacks being able to potentially do multiple damage.  Is this too strong?  Too bloated? Mathhammer wise I believe it is as good as it is now against T6 targets and much better against everything else.

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Reworking the Poison Mechanic   Mon Jan 29 2018, 15:47

I think thst’s A klittle too bloated.

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