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FuelDrop
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Should our elites be extra elite...   Wed Jan 17 2018, 23:18

Was toying with an idea for Trueborn and Bloodbrides: What if your 4 points bought you more than the +1 attack?

I was thinking that Trueborn might get +1 BS over warriors, giving them a BS 2+ and making those special weapons they can take be really scary.

Bloodbrides... well, WS 2+ is a good start but it means little in the overall scheme of things, given how easily we get up to WS 2+. I'd be inclined to give them a total of +2 attacks over wyches, instead of +1

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Wed Jan 17 2018, 23:39

I'll disagree on increasing BS on Trueborn. 2+ BS is something usually reserved for HQs, something I actually tend to agree with. Archons already struggle to make their points back, I feel like stealing their 2+ Blaster shot would only make things worse.

I'd rather they get something more unique to represent their accuracy.
The easy one would be rerolls of one to wound, with a Strategem to allow them to reroll all wounds. That'd at least help to ease us off reliance on doom.

Second, they could add one to the AP of their ranged attacks. Having AP-5 on darklight would give them a good niche against 2+ saves, and -1 Splinter would make Cannonborn a thing.

Finally, they perhaps could deal a mortal wound on a 6+ to hit, giving an alternative to Mandrakes, and some easily accessible anti-invuln.

For Bloodbrides, I'd definitely agree they need an extra attack. WS2+ would also be welcome. In addition, I think giving them a 5++ against shooting, an automatic pass on No Escape, and more access to special weapons would distinguish them quite well.

Or, you could swap out the invuln in exchange for double dipping on combat drugs, perhaps from their own luxury table.

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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Thu Jan 18 2018, 00:31

I don't think bloodbrides hitting on 2s will really help them since with PfP they get there anyway. Double dipping drugs and an extra attack would be great. I wish you could gear them out with Wych weapons or agonizers too.
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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Thu Jan 18 2018, 05:54

Quote :
2+ BS is something usually reserved for HQs

In 7th edition, you could have BS/WS 2+ for all your aspect warriors thanks to the special Shrine Formation.
That was really something.

And now Custodes have 2+ armywide.

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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Thu Jan 18 2018, 06:16

Jeah but custodes are an elite army of the elites. They pay tripple the points we should. I agree I would rather have some ap-1 or reroll wounds on the trueborn.

For bloodbrides I find it hard to discuss since wyches themselves need an overhaul. If wyches already get rending, I say bloodbrides only need he extra attacks and more special weapons. I would not improve their no escape over wyches, let the shardnets and easyer acces to them handle that, besides for me bloodbrides should be more killy, not more defensive then wyches.

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Thu Jan 18 2018, 13:18

I'd prefer it if Trueborn got Ghsotplate Armour as part of those 4pts instead of boosting any of their other stats. With Bloodbrides I'd prefer it if their base points cost was reduced in comparison to Wyches (obviously both need a big points reduction at present) as they shouldnt be paying 4pts for only +1 attack, more importantly though they need a vast improvement in their access to special weapons as it's these weapons that tend to help make an elite unit elite.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Thu Jan 18 2018, 13:22

I want blood brides to do more damage. Like:
For every invulnerable save you pass you get an auto hit strength 3 base attack.

Throw them at a horde and have some fun.
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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Sat Jan 20 2018, 18:35

I'd like to see bloodbrides be able to double dip drugs. 4S4 attacks per model is fairly respectable if you take the A and S drugs.

Alternatively I'd like to see 6s to hit auto-wound. Gw could really take some inspiration from Fantasy for how to make wyches and bloodbrides good.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Sat Jan 20 2018, 19:53

Literally the only thing Bloodbrides need are easy access to wargear just as Trueborn. Do the math, if each Bloodbride had access to a pair of Hydra Gauntlets their offensive potential would skyrocket.

You wouldn't even need any fancy rules that are situational at best. S3 isn't bad if you can re-roll wounds all of a sudden.


Imo, this is also one of the root problems of our army. We have good models with nice special rules, but our access/efficiency of special wargear is simply not enough.
Just imagine an "Acothyst Conclave" (Elite Wracks that act like Trueborn) where 4 Wracks can take special wargear. Couple that with some cheaper Liquifier guns and suddenly we would have a solid answer to GEQ spam.

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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Sat Jan 20 2018, 20:08

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
Literally the only thing Bloodbrides need are easy access to wargear just as Trueborn. Do the math, if each Bloodbride had access to a pair of Hydra Gauntlets their offensive potential would skyrocket.

You wouldn't even need any fancy rules that are situational at best. S3 isn't bad if you can re-roll wounds all of a sudden.


Imo, this is also one of the root problems of our army. We have good models with nice special rules, but our access/efficiency of special wargear is simply not enough.
Just imagine an "Acothyst Conclave" (Elite Wracks that act like Trueborn) where 4 Wracks can take special wargear. Couple that with some cheaper Liquifier guns and suddenly we would have a solid answer to GEQ spam.

I disagree. Consider that you're now paying - what - 17 points per bloodbride in order to have 3S3 attacks at ap-1, re-rolling hits?

That's insanely high. Wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too high. If they were 13 per model with the guantlets, I can agree. But 17 with the gauntlets is mental.

Compare our now buffed out Blood brides to a unit of Genestealers of equal points. Or, hell, yo're not far off to a unit of death company with jump packs at that price. When you consider the type of melee that's in the game right now, bloodbrides getting the privilege of paying for more weapons just doesn't compete.
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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Sat Jan 20 2018, 21:05

Reminder:Havocs entire thing is extra weapons, and they don't pay extra for the access.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Sat Jan 20 2018, 21:49

@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:
Literally the only thing Bloodbrides need are easy access to wargear just as Trueborn. Do the math, if each Bloodbride had access to a pair of Hydra Gauntlets their offensive potential would skyrocket.

You wouldn't even need any fancy rules that are situational at best. S3 isn't bad if you can re-roll wounds all of a sudden.


Imo, this is also one of the root problems of our army. We have good models with nice special rules, but our access/efficiency of special wargear is simply not enough.
Just imagine an "Acothyst Conclave" (Elite Wracks that act like Trueborn) where 4 Wracks can take special wargear. Couple that with some cheaper Liquifier guns and suddenly we would have a solid answer to GEQ spam.

I disagree. Consider that you're now paying - what - 17 points per bloodbride in order to have 3S3 attacks at ap-1, re-rolling hits?

That's insanely high. Wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too high. If they were 13 per model with the guantlets, I can agree. But 17 with the gauntlets is mental.

Compare our now buffed out Blood brides to a unit of Genestealers of equal points. Or, hell, yo're not far off to a unit of death company with jump packs at that price. When you consider the type of melee that's in the game right now, bloodbrides getting the privilege of paying for more weapons just doesn't compete.

You have missed one crucial thing: Hydra Gauntlet's re-roll wounds, not hits.

And why do people never take drugs into consideration?
With +1S from drugs, you can have: 3 S4 attacks with re-rolling wounds at AP-1. You can also count on hitting on 2+.

Genestealer vs Hydra Gauntlet Bloodbride:
Genestealers: 66% to hit, 66% to wound, 3 attacks = 0.66 dead BB (considering the 4++)
Bloodbrides: 83% to hit, 75% to wound, 3 attacks = 1.25 dead GS (considering the 5++)

And this is just where it starts. I never said that it would make BB great, only that it would increase their offensive potential significantly. And this is just comparing an index vs a codex unit, I do count on Wyches/BB receiving additionall buffs as well (such as lower point costs, a more consistent 4++, better wargear etc.).

But having more wargear would be a drastic improvement without rule bloat and a significant step forwards.

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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Sat Jan 20 2018, 22:31

Few things that make your comparison a bit disingenuous. Stealers get +1 attack for being over 10 models.

Let's assume that you've got 10 of each squad and you give bloodbrides the +1 attack drug (which I believe is mathematically stronger when you factor in the hydra gauntlets reroll to wound.)

Bloodbrides:: 40 attacks - 26.6 hits - 14.7 wounds- 9.8 dead stealers.

Genesteslers: 40 attacks - 26.6 hits - 17.7 wounds - 8.9 dead bloodbrides.

You can see yours already at a massive points loss in this scenario. Bloodbrides are at 17 per model compared the stealers 12: almost a 1/3 difference! Then you need o consider that stealers are also troops, have an inherent -1ap with a -4 on 6s, can advance and charge, can easily get +1 to.hit when next to an amazing character model and are a T4 with an inherent 5++.

The ability for bloodbrides to take all hydra gauntlets is definitely what I want to see, but it's not all that they need. 17 points a model for that statline is way too high.


Edit: I know hydra gauntlets are re-roll wounds. An embarrassing typo. Sorry about That!
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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Sat Jan 20 2018, 23:09

I am firmly of the opinion that Bloodbrides should be scary mofos. we are paying a lot of points, they lack in tactical flexibility, so I say they get to be REALLY GOOD at killing stuff.

@Strange Dark One

People don't factor in drugs because their effects are too variable. Particularly if you take a Cult army, the fact is that you cannot give good drugs to all units. So logically you should work out if a unit is worth its points in a sub-optimal scenario that you are forced into by taking several of them.
If you are running a wych cult with a succubus, a few squads of wyches, some bloodbrides, some reavers and a squad of hellions, plus a beastmaster, SOMEONE is going to end up with +1 leadership.
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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Sun Jan 21 2018, 14:47

Quote :
SOMEONE is going to end up with +1 leadership.

The beastmaster, of course Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Mon Jan 22 2018, 02:00

And it's +2Ld. It's the +1WS thats useless.
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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Mon Jan 22 2018, 07:11

@Imateria wrote:
And it's +2Ld. It's the +1WS thats useless.

Precisely.

+2 mvt : the Succubus that didn't fit in the raider (coz you're a smart man and you took 10 wyches for the 3 weapons)
+ 1 A : the MVP. Hellions/wyches.
+ 1 S : the other MVP. Hellions/Wyches.
+2 LD : the beastmaster is a nice guy, he shares his drug with his animal mates Wink
+1 T : quite good. Traditionnally on reavers, even though it's worthwhile on anybody.
+1 WS : Oh god why ^^

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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Mon Jan 22 2018, 07:33

I agree that if the point cost of bloodbrides is made right, and we can have special weapons. then just special weapons is enough.
I also think blood brides do not need much extra special rules, just give them another attack and more special weapon acces and if the point cost is done right they are fine.
The problem right now is that they cost as much as a bunch of melee specialist who have vastly better stats. A hormagaunt to genestealer: pays 6 points for a ward save, armour save, an extra attack, ap, str, thoughness and charge and advance.
We also get the wards save and the extra attack, but we pick one from str thoughness, we do have power from pain and no escape. So are power from pain and no escape worth the ap, thoughness charge and advance and bonus attacks for a large unit. I would say pfp and charge and advance are sort of equal, you might if you want to keep the bloodbrides a little bit worse since stealers are quite good ad in the ap here for the bonusses from turn 3+. The large unit bonus attacks am I willing to write under no escape (where for genestealers it is much more important than for the bloodbrides).
That still leaves 1 important stat improvement lost, so for similar points we really should have better base stats. And considering that the genestealers can have free special weapons, we should either also get them for free or have the option for the complete unit to have them.

So even when writing away special rules on a best case scenario we pretty much suck compared to similarly priced fast melee units.
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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Mon Jan 22 2018, 16:59

What if combat drugs got a huge boost for blood brides? +2S, +2A, +2T, etc. Double the bonus for being elite? Or a special cocktail mix of drugs, giving them access to 2-3 drugs rather than just 1?

And to replace the +1WS, give them +1 to melee invuln saves.
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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Mon Jan 22 2018, 20:11

@Sarkesian wrote:


And to replace the +1WS, give them +1 to melee invuln saves.

or +1 to the pfp save.

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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Mon Jan 22 2018, 20:20

What exactly is the purpose of witches and blood brides?

It's not good in killing and to unreliable to tar pit. So either strengthen the killing potential or the tar pit one.

+4 movement would be a nice bonus too.
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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Mon Jan 22 2018, 21:28

I see wyches and especially bloodbrides to lay waste to cheap troops and tie combat specialists for a long time, without being especially killy.

I would give wyches and bloodbrides the rule "gain +1 attack for each WS difference between the attacker and the defender"

bloodbrides can gain too "bloodbrides can reduce her number of attack by X to gain +X to her locking rollout"
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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Mon Jan 22 2018, 21:29

@CptMetal wrote:
What exactly is the purpose of witches and blood brides?

It's not good in killing and to unreliable to tar pit. So either strengthen the killing potential or the tar pit one.

+4 movement would be a nice bonus too.

Let's see...

They are cult units, so they focus heavily on offense. They have no mean of transportation of their own, so they rely on vehicles.

Their signature is a lot of attack, low S, no AP, and some special weapons.
Their special rule is made to prevent people from running back... which no dedicated Melee Unit would ever want to do.


With all that in mind, i think it's safe to say that Wyches aim to put a lot of pain onto weak, non-melee units. They should be the bane of T'au, Guardsmen, Gretchins, stuff like that.

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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Tue Jan 23 2018, 02:48

Eh, I'd rather have covens havest the fodder while our gladiators seek out a challenge to their skills. Where's the rush in cutting down Tau in melee?

I would like Wyches and Bloodbrides to be specced to hunt enemy melee units. We aren't exactly short on stuff to deal with other melee roles, and the existing rules and fluff of Wyches lends them well to a counter-melee role.
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PostSubject: Re: Should our elites be extra elite...   Tue Jan 23 2018, 19:01

Imo, the unit shouldn't be designed to be a close combat specialist hunter or be a GEQ blender. It should be the choice of the wargear that determines what a Wych/Bloodbride excels against.

In a perfect world Hydra Gauntlets would be the GEQ blenders, Razorflails would help help against high toughness/save models and the Shardnet/Impaler help them minimizing incoming melee damage (the latter would allow them to drag out fights which they can't hope to win).

Preferably, more models in a squad should have access to special wargear to begin with (+1 weapon for 5 Wyches in a squad and we should have ways to have HQs accompany full sized squads in a Raider). Apart from transports, I still believe that it is mostly only our access to wargear that truely separates us from other factions. Or rather, it should be.

Just my 2 cents.

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