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Rodi Sikni
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Wed Jan 17 2018, 13:29

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Why rapid fire 4+ ? There is no penalty for moving with one...
You are right. Honestly, I don't know what i was thinking at all xD

Talking about firepower, this is a rumor about Custodes' bikes:
According to the (Correct so far) leaks:
- Regular hurricane bolters
- Missile has two modes:
Heavy d3 S7AP-1
Heavy 1 S8AP-4 d6 damage


Points are unknown, but if is true, they will have missiles with 2 profiles, one of them like a DL... And custodes have BS 2+, so they can move and shoot Heavy weapons with bs3+
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Wed Jan 17 2018, 14:43

Custodes are also amongst the most expensive (pointwise) armies in the game Wink

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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Wed Jan 17 2018, 21:45

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@DevilDoll wrote:
i might get stoned for this but i really believe we are not in a bad spot regarding firepower even compared to some released codexes.
Some tweaks here and there and we should be able to compete with any shooting army...

We could really do with another platform for dissies though. My 7e homebrew codex allowed them as an upgrade on Venoms. Using 8e rules would put a twin dissie Venom at 125 points and I think that would be pretty sweet option!

That would be pretty sweet. I wouldn't mind seeing void scythes or void lances as options either. Another light fast weapon platform would be sweet. Even better if it has a flickerfield.

@Count Adhemar wrote:


Where we suffer in terms of firepower is firstly a lack of variety. We have 2 or 3 decent weapons and the rest are basically worthless so we just end up spamming the good stuff, which is boring and predictable. The second issue is our AI firepower, which is frankly laughable. For an army that relies heavily on poison, which you would imagine would be pretty effective against lightly armoured, low toughness targets, we are unbelievably poor at taking out such targets. The third problem is our shooting buffs, which are non-existent. No re-rolls to hit or wound, no ability to fire more often or more accurately. Nothing! Lastly, we have an almost total lack of twin-linked weaponry or high rate of fire weapons. When you have individual weapons putting out 10+ shots and single units putting out 40+ shots, our rate of fire starts to look totally pathetic. Which it is!


Fixing a few of our CC options (I'm thinking grotesques) would help. Your completely right about lacking twin linked or high rate of fire weapons. Rerolling wounds on low toughness models might make up for some of the lack of shots. That 4+ to wound is great against somethings but, a horde of poxwalkers, gaunts, or whatever low toughness blood that can get past morale issues are a bit of a problem.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Wed Jan 17 2018, 22:16

I don't like being outdone at the jetbike/skimmer thing by the imperium.

There are 3 races that use skimmers/Jetbikes: Necrons, Eldar, Tau.

Between the Repulsor and now this, it's becoming clear that the Imperium does skimmers better than any of us.

Yes theirs are more expensive, but they're also better in every way except maybe a couple of inches of speed.

I am fine with the Imperium having skimmers, I just don't like it that they outclass the best that the skimmer focused races can bring to the table.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 03:01

Wow, just looked at the release for Custodes bikes.
"You like Shining Spears, Harlequin bikes? Well these are better in every way! Sorry Xenos scum, couldn't let you have the best assault jetbike option in the game. Oh, and we'll also outshoot your heavy weapons bikes at the same time, just cos."
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Drugo
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 07:50

@FuelDrop wrote:
Wow, just looked at the release for Custodes bikes.
"You like Shining Spears, Harlequin bikes? Well these are better in every way! Sorry Xenos scum, couldn't let you have the best assault jetbike option in the game. Oh, and we'll also outshoot your heavy weapons bikes at the same time, just cos."

Wow.. so much salt for something that you don't even know how will it be costed.
Saying DE are lacking firepower or comparing Ravagers with Russes is bonkers but comparing eldar jetbikes to custodes ones is next level.
Think that currently the base custodes guy is 52 point, the guy on foot, the one that dies like a termi? That one. What if the bike is 100 points? is it still the best thing ever and you won't look at harlies bike ever again? Probably not.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 09:21

The salt is that in any catagory these days, the imperium has access to the BEST, better than what the races that specialize in that have as their top tier version. Repulsor outguns any non-superheavy skimmer. Castodes outclass all other jetbikes. Gilliman makes a mockery of all other characters and non titanic monsters, apart fron the demon primarchs. Etcetera ecetera. Can there please be one catagory where a xenos race that specializes in that cadagory's top option outclasses the imperium? Is that really too much to ask? Or is even close? I'll take the literal avatar of any of our gods being a contender for gilliman in any one catagory.


Also, was not comparing the Ravager to the leman russ. Was comparing the Ravager to ONE GUN on the leman russ, as it has several others as well.

EDIT: I want to be absolutely clear here: my main problem with the Castodes bikes is that they are JETBIKES, which is not Imperial turf, so them having the best stuff there really ticks me off. Add wheels and they're fine. Ditto the Repulsor.
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Drugo
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 09:47

What's the point of declaring something as "best" without taking in consideration the points cost, really?
Oh gee the Stormraven is the best! Except for the cost of a kitted stormraven we can have 2 razorwings/crimson hunters which will mop the floor with the imperial one. Or compare a Rhino with a Raider? The Raider crap all over the Rhino, but it's a 50% more in points...
Guilliman can't be compared to normal characters, they are not in the same league, compare it to Magnus or Typhus if you like.
In any case the original point was that we lack firepower, and the simple answer to that is "not true". While DE (for now) lack in rerolls and variety they have one of the most point efficient arsenals in the whole game that pretty much ignores something that cripples other armies, namely the -1 to hit on the move.

Also edit: fluff wise the Imperium had jetbikes as well, since the rogue trader actually. And custodes get the best of the best of the golden age tech, pretty sure their jetbikes are pretty good compared to mass produced xenos bikes. And no, I don't own any SM or Custodes army...
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 09:51

@Drugo wrote:
In any case the original point was that we lack firepower, and the simple answer to that is "not true". While DE (for now) lack in rerolls and variety they have one of the most point efficient arsenals in the whole game that pretty much ignores something that cripples other armies, namely the -1 to hit on the move.

Except that many people disagree with your conclusion. DE do lack firepower in certain areas. See my earlier post on this thread for details of the areas in which we fall short. Dark Lances are not the answer to every problem, nor should they be.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 09:59

@Drugo wrote:
What's the point of declaring something as "best" without taking in consideration the points cost, really?
Oh gee the Stormraven is the best! Except for the cost of a kitted stormraven we can have 2 razorwings/crimson hunters which will mop the floor with the imperial one. Or compare a Rhino with a Raider? The Raider crap all over the Rhino, but it's a 50% more in points...
Guilliman can't be compared to normal characters, they are not in the same league, compare it to Magnus or Typhus if you like.
In any case the original point was that we lack firepower, and the simple answer to that is "not true". While DE (for now) lack in rerolls and variety they have one of the most point efficient arsenals in the whole game that pretty much ignores something that cripples other armies, namely the -1 to hit on the move.

So all non imperial armies are spam armies trying to play catchup to the top tier imperial stuff, while also being undercut by their cheap spammable stuff in the same category?

The Imperium gets access to the widest variety of units of any faction. They get access to the most forgeworld stuff. they get access to both the cheapest cannonfodder, the top tier elites, and all the stuff in the middle at every level.

An Imperium player can and should be able to field an entirely legal army taking contingents from every subfaction with the Imperium keyword. This gives them access to an unparalleled level of flexibility with army building.

The PROBLEM is that not only do they get access to the most toys, they get access to toys that are more powerful than the most powerful equivalent unit in the armies that specialize in that area, while in pretty much every case also having access to an elite version, a regular version, and a cheap disposable version.

Meanwhile, other factions get left on the curb while the Imperium bloats and absorbs their spot as specialists in that area.


I have said before that I am fine with Custodes getting a codex, they should just have waited until all the index armies were done. I am fine with them getting nice toys, I am not fine with their nice toys filling the niche of our nice toys and doing it better than we can, even if we are willing to spend the points.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 10:05

The problem with DE is balance. Its always the problem.

Give us to good Shooting and we become a shooting only army
Give us to good melee and we become a melee only army.

5th (till GK's came out), 6th (the start) and 7th (the end) are great example of this.

5th we became a both, when parking lot was out it was Venoms and Wyches only, Wych melee was scary b.c they could kill tanks, a 5man uni + a Venom could kill a tank + 3-4 marines.
When GK's came out (due to Skimmer rules) we went all RWJF and Venoms

6th was the king of Deathstars, at the start of 6th we had the single most scary melee unit the game has ever seen, a 8 man unit of Kymerae wound pool with 4++, 2 RWF (they did damage back then), a Character that gave the unit Hit and Run (Baron), another character to cast other powers on it (Farseer) another bad ass character (Shadowseer), it was a 500pts Deathstar with multi 2/3++ all 4++, re-roll saves, Hit and Run, with just stupid.
Venoms and Raiders literally could do anything, with only a 5+ (or 5++) jink and could be kill with 1 shot, no point in taking them.

Then 7th, we all know how that went, we started out strong (until Eldar/Tau) with vehicles and heav shooting, we got a Coven book and the CTC and Reavers dominated the tables, we became a melee army once again.


GW seems to not know how to Balance DE, i truly feel DE is just a daunting to GW rules writers and gives them a headache.



Edit to add to the other covo: For 1, the storm raven is consider bad now (with the points change and flyer rule changes), no one in comp takes them anymore.

I agree that Custodes are a cool army to have and lots of players wanted them for 40k, im glad they have it, but they should have waited till established 40k armies had their codex's.

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Drugo
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 10:17

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Drugo wrote:
In any case the original point was that we lack firepower, and the simple answer to that is "not true". While DE (for now) lack in rerolls and variety they have one of the most point efficient arsenals in the whole game that pretty much ignores something that cripples other armies, namely the -1 to hit on the move.

Except that many people disagree with your conclusion. DE do lack firepower in certain areas. See my earlier post on this thread for details of the areas in which we fall short. Dark Lances are not the answer to every problem, nor should they be.

We do lack variety and in that we lack a more efficient way to deal with low T hordes, always been the case, would be awesome to have access to say... shuriken catapults/cannons. Still DE are incredibly efficient even when they use a tool that's not optimal for the job, dozens of poison shots from the relative safety and mobility of many open topped vehicles.
Not sure what everyone that think otherwise fields in his army list but for me 8th edition DE has been ridiculously good, 2017 I've won every single tournament I've played with mine (about 8 or 9 I think) and in a pretty competitive environment with the usual suspects, Magnus/brimstones/changeling, Guilliman megabubbles, IK, Kastellans/Cawl... you name it. Never felt like I was needing more firepower Very Happy
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Drugo
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 10:19

@amishprn86 wrote:


Edit to add to the other covo: For 1, the storm raven is consider bad now (with the points change and flyer rule changes), no one in comp takes them anymore.


Well, that's exactly what I'm saying, isn't it? In a vacuum you can say something is the best (the stormraven is tougher! has more weapons! ignores movement penalties!), then once you take into account points well... as you can see it's not the case anymore.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 11:22

I think part of the problem here is that 2 discussions are being rolled into one.

The discussion of gameplay power.
Are we good enough (probably), do we have the tools to deal with everything (possibly), do we have the tools to deal with everything without changing lists (debatable). Do we have a lot of things that in their chosen role are worse then a good option used for a role it was not designed for (probably). Are a lot of our options not real options in competetive play (I think so).
(cult units are rarely a good option, heatlances are bad etc).
And I agree with amish we are a hard army to balance well since we are often seen as the counter army by GW. We are very good against some armies, and other armies are very good against us. This makes us very hard to balance as an army. And depending on the meta we can rock real hard or die trying. But next to that is also the viability of our units compared to their alternatives, and this is often not as well done. Now I think sometimes it goes great (the fact that people are still debating here regularly if we should have another ravager or a unit of dark lance scourges or the discussion between dark lances and dissies means it sometimes goes well) the problem that blasters, or haywire is never considered.

The discussion of lore vs tabletop power.
The problem is not about if the skimmer is a good option on the tabletop, the problem that apparently the imperium has better skimmers then we can make. Or that the imperial heroes are better fighters then the eldar who train for multiple lifetimes. That the imperials make better guns then the Tau.
Yes all those things have a point cost attached to them, and in gameplay it should not matter if you have 2 guns doing 1d6 shots or 1 gun with 2d6 shots. But lorewise it feels strange that the imperials have something that is always a little better then the others, even if the others have no problems with trying to improve their equipment and the imperials do.
Now I will say that this is sometimes also debatable, do the custodus have better jetbikes, I think ours are still faster, so i would say no, they just have more armour and weapons on top which we consider less important.
Sorry for the long rant.
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Drugo
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 11:35

I don't know, Imperials (read Marines, quality wise they are the only one fighting for "elite" status champion here) have heaps of ups and downs.
It also goes depending on editions, this one imperial guns are better than Tau? I'd say so, wasn't the same in the previous edition or 2 though, we talk about fluff only? Tau weapons are pictured as the cream of the crop while imperial technology is crude though effective.
Skimmers? I wouldn't say Land Speeders are better than Vypers, Venoms, Skyweavers. Repulsor? Well, here's my Tantalus, with the added bonus that it looks much better than a Repulsor ever will...
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 11:37

@|Meavar wrote:
I think part of the problem here is that 2 discussions are being rolled into one.

The discussion of gameplay power.
Are we good enough (probably), do we have the tools to deal with everything (possibly), do we have the tools to deal with everything without changing lists (debatable). Do we have a lot of things that in their chosen role are worse then a good option used for a role it was not designed for (probably). Are a lot of our options not real options in competetive play (I think so).
(cult units are rarely a good option, heatlances are bad etc).
And I agree with amish we are a hard army to balance well since we are often seen as the counter army by GW. We are very good against some armies, and other armies are very good against us. This makes us very hard to balance as an army. And depending on the meta we can rock real hard or die trying. But next to that is also the viability of our units compared to their alternatives, and this is often not as well done. Now I think sometimes it goes great (the fact that people are still debating here regularly if we should have another ravager or a unit of dark lance scourges or the discussion between dark lances and dissies means it sometimes goes well) the problem that blasters, or haywire is never considered.

The discussion of lore vs tabletop power.
The problem is not about if the skimmer is a good option on the tabletop, the problem that apparently the imperium has better skimmers then we can make. Or that the imperial heroes are better fighters then the eldar who train for multiple lifetimes. That the imperials make better guns then the Tau.
Yes all those things have a point cost attached to them, and in gameplay it should not matter if you have 2 guns doing 1d6 shots or 1 gun with 2d6 shots. But lorewise it feels strange that the imperials have something that is always a little better then the others, even if the others have no problems with trying to improve their equipment and the imperials do.
Now I will say that this is sometimes also debatable, do the custodus have better jetbikes, I think ours are still faster, so i would say no, they just have more armour and weapons on top which we consider less important.
Sorry for the long rant.

Don't be sorry, you made some very good points.

TBH I think the only thing I would actually contradict you on is the very last point. I think you captured why I am irked by this perfectly and articulated it better than I did.

The only thing is that as far as speed is concerned... they're close enough to us as makes no difference, while still being heavier armed and armoured, tougher, stronger, ect.

If our claim to being the better jetbike builders is speed (which with DE it should be!), I want to be decisively faster and more importantly able to USE that speed. Our Jetbikes can advance further than anyone... we just can't do anything afterwards, while our craftworlder brothers are marginally slower but can fire heavy weapons while advancing at no penalty.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 11:39

@Drugo wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:


Edit to add to the other covo: For 1, the storm raven is consider bad now (with the points change and flyer rule changes), no one in comp takes them anymore.


Well, that's exactly what I'm saying, isn't it? In a vacuum you can say something is the best (the stormraven is tougher! has more weapons! ignores movement penalties!), then once you take into account points well... as you can see it's not the case anymore.

But it was the best until the point change, thats what i'm saying, there is a reason it was dominating the tables until the points/rule changes.
PS, i dont know ANYONE that doesnt take into count point cost, no one vacuums out the points lol.

And we do lack fire power, but not b.c we dont have it, IMO its due to points, if many things were cheaper we could just take more, Reavers, Hellions, Coven, Splinter Cannons, etc.. etc.. if a Splinter cannon and Venoms/Raiders were a bit cheaper (5-10pts per vehicle and 5pts for the cannons) the venom would then be 80pts for 2 SC's. that means trueborns with some SC's also would be a good pick, b.c its cheap now and now we have more shots for the same price of a Venom with 5 basic trueborns.

If Reavers dropped by 15pts each and the weapons dropped each, we have our scalpels back with blasters/hl's

Blasters for some stupid reason does lack Fire power. 15pts for D3? yeah no thanks, i'm happy with my Melta gun SOB's for 17pts that can scout in an open top rhino. (SOB has a Trueborn unit in a venom basically with melta guns that scout, they are amazing), 27pts for a girls that vs 26pts for a kabal, Melta vs blaster, 3+/6++ vs 5+/6+++, everything else is the same stats.

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Drugo
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 12:13

The easy fix would be as you say, much cheaper splinter cannons (or just make them assault 6 and I'll pay 15 points probably) and I would add fixing heatlances cost or better still just replace it with eldar fusion guns (it's just unbelievably stupid at the moment, much more expensive than fusion guns and definitely worse, makes no sense) and make Shredders decent for once in our lives (say same cost, 10 points even, d6 instead of d3 shots and 18" range, job done)
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 12:49

A SB is better than a shredder for the duration of the game and they are 2pts, i want Shredders to be at least 3pts. Or make them better as you say, i would do 10pts S5 D6 -1ap, make it an Anti Infantry and not Anti-MC (S6 means it could be a MC hunter with AP).

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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 13:04

Shredder:
10 points.
Assault 1d6.
Range 18"
Strength 6
AP - (-4 on a 6+ to wound)
1 damage

This weapon rerolls failed wounds against infantry. On a roll of 6+ to hit, generates an extra attack. These attacks cannot generate extra attacks.
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 13:12

So shredder could do the way of SB, mass fire for cheap, or more costly and do better damage.

Either way is fine with me, i just want it to be different than it is now.

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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 13:14

@amishprn86 wrote:
So shredder could do the way of SB, mass fire for cheap, or more costly and do better damage.

Either way is fine with me, i just want it to be different than it is now.

(Takes the current shredder, halves the range, doubles the points, and calls it good.)
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 13:18

Yes. Make a shredder born unit our go to choice to decimate hordes!
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 13:37

I hope they do not make them assault 6, I really like the risk vs reward we get from rapid fire, it suits us to be in their faces as we should be.
But it does need some improvements (maybe rapid fire 4 or an ap of -1, wounding on a 3+)

Trueborn themselves just need to be cheaper. 12 points means we are a space marines with lower save, str and t for 1 point of movement. (Our attack they get back with the chainsword and with better guns,  pistols and grenades are thrown in for good measure). Or banshees, who have the same stats (just a better save and move) and a bunch of usefull special rules, ow no wait they got down to 9 points each.

Good shredders would be nice either keep them cheap as in 3 or 4 points or double their number of shots (possibly make them flamer style).
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PostSubject: Re: Firepower   Thu Jan 18 2018, 13:45

I always compare DE closedt to SOB, out of all armies, they are the DE of the Imperial. a Dom (basically a trueborn) is 10pts for 3+/6++ ws/bs 3+ s/t 3+, they can get open top vehicle and every model can have either or, Flamer, Melta, SB (so Shredder, Lance, Blaster basically).

Let me repeat that... they are 10pts. Sure no FnP, but they are 3+ and a Invul. and... if out of vehicle can Shoot/Move/attack 2x or even bring back 1 model lol.

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