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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Ravagers or Scourges   Wed Jan 10 2018, 21:08

I'm going to a friendly 2 man tournament early Feb. I've still got to paint a ravager up for it, but I've just bought a box of Scourges and what lovely looking models they are!
My list only has 1 ravager at 1000 points but I do have a RWJF too. Is it a stupid idea to switch the ravager out for 5 Scourges with 4 DL's?
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers or Scourges   Wed Jan 10 2018, 21:54

It certainly isn't a stupid idea.

Both choices have been discussed again, and again, and it basically boils down to this :

- Scourges shoot more, but have -1 to hit if they move
- Scourges die faster, but they are immune to Alpha Strike (because they don't start on the table)
- Both models look cool
- Scourges are super cheap (in cash).


So if you play against heavy Alpha Strike, having a squad of scourge (or 2) makes it sure that you will have some AT left at the beginning of your first turn. But once on the table, they tend to die to the first twin linked bolter that looks at them.

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clively
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers or Scourges   Thu Jan 11 2018, 03:47

It’s a toss up, but imho a ravager placed out of LoS and protected against an alpha strike is better and has a good probability of earning its points back the first time it shoots.

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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers or Scourges   Thu Jan 11 2018, 06:20

I like to bring both if points can be found. 5 dark lances in 1k list isn't many unless you partner is bringing lots of anti tank.

Scourge placement can also be crucial. If you can plop them down in cover on top of ruin and make them less easy of a target it helps.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers or Scourges   Thu Jan 11 2018, 15:22

@clively wrote:
It’s a toss up, but imho a ravager placed out of LoS and protected against an alpha strike is better and has a good probability of earning its points back the first time it shoots.

My problem is that ravagers are huge, I MIGHT be able to put one out of los, but 2 or 3 is just not going to happen on the tables I play with. Most LoS blocking terrain is not that big in ur gaming group.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers or Scourges   Thu Jan 11 2018, 15:53

Im a Ravager player, they always last for many turns for me, even against alpha strike lists.

Tho, i tend to try and play LONG games (turns 3+ lol) with my Harlequins and DE. I have in my DE pure army, 4+ Ravagers, 2 Bombers, and 10 RWF's as a base. The deployment is set up to 100% stop alpha strike, 10 RWF is 40 wounds, and 2 Flyers means they cant charge those.

Here is an example:

You'll see that the bombers are turn side ways, the RWF between and its all in a way to stop them from being charged. If its Corners its easier to do this, if its IG Alpha strike then i try to LoS out as much as i can and out range as much as i can, if its Dawn of War deployment i pick 1 1/2 and use that 1/2.

NOTE: its 3 different units of RWF, 2 behind the Flyers to make a Multi charge much harder, the front unit is always 4.5" away from the back two so they cant Consolidate into them.


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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers or Scourges   Thu Jan 11 2018, 20:34

@amishprn86 wrote:

Here is an example:

You'll see that the bombers are turn side ways, the RWF between and its all in a way to stop them from being charged. If its Corners its easier to do this, if its IG Alpha strike then i try to LoS out as much as i can and out range as much as i can, if its Dawn of War deployment i pick 1 1/2 and use that 1/2.

NOTE: its 3 different units of RWF, 2 behind the Flyers to make a Multi charge much harder, the front unit is always 4.5" away from the back two so they cant Consolidate into them.


Man, thats so deep

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DOGGED
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers or Scourges   Thu Jan 11 2018, 20:49

@Mppqlmd wrote:


[...]
- Scourges shoot more, but have -1 to hit if they move
[...]

Sorry but...

3 DL hitting at 3+ are not the same than 4 DL shooting at 4+?
Both hit twice, don't they?
But Scourges, not moving, have a marginal advantage. In 3 turns, a Ravager will have scored 6 hits against the 8 hits done by the Scourges.
Guess it depends heavily on the terrain you'd expect to find. In dense urban terrain tables I'd choose Scourges all the way...

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers or Scourges   Thu Jan 11 2018, 22:32

Scourges have DS advantage, which can be really huge because it makes them alpha-strike proof. No first turn charges from Heldrakes. That sort of thing.
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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers or Scourges   Thu Jan 11 2018, 22:44

@FuelDrop wrote:
Scourges have DS advantage, which can be really huge because it makes them alpha-strike proof. No first turn charges from Heldrakes. That sort of thing.

Also allows for better positioning, and the 36" range means you can drop almost anywhere on the table.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers or Scourges   Fri Jan 12 2018, 09:41

@wormfromhell wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
Scourges have DS advantage, which can be really huge because it makes them alpha-strike proof. No first turn charges from Heldrakes. That sort of thing.

Also allows for better positioning, and the 36" range means you can drop almost anywhere on the table.

Maybe a silly question, most of the time when someone means alpha strike people start to talk about turn 1 charges, which while they happen sometimes, are rarely a large issue, since I can protect against them. It usually is the first turn shooting that is the biggest issue for me. Expecially with things like hydra's and manticores who can shoot acros the complete table and for around 100 points kill half a vehicle each turn.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers or Scourges   Fri Jan 12 2018, 10:03

To me alpha strike is the ability to destroy a large part of your opponents army before they get a chance to go. That could be through assault, but more commonly it is having enough shooting to mess up the other side, and the artillery tanks you mention could absolutely fit into that.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers or Scourges   Fri Jan 12 2018, 10:04

1st turn shooting isnt really alpha strike, Shooting is just strong atm.

When a 10+ man unit can DS, charge with 90% accuracy, and get 2 (sometimes more) separate Fight phases back to back with 40-90+ attacks each time and able to pile in and consolidate between those fight.  DSing melee is the best way to stop Gunline armies and b.c Gunline armies are popular, more and more players are doing this (CSM, Daemons, Tyranids, your even seeing more and more DSing SM's now). When they can kill 2-3units with 1 unit and tie up another unit, doing this 3+ times, yeah thats more like an alpha strike.

Edit: LIke to note, Shooting can be Alpha strike, but IG doesnt do that, they are just very good at shooting, IG CAN do that and its the form of DSing insane amounts of Plasma that can shoot twice, GW slightly nerf this so many players dont do that anymore.

-CSM atm can do Alpha strike Shooting AND melee (even at the same time to a point).
-Tyranids can Alpha Strike shooting as well. Easily 400+ SHots that are S4, S6, and S8, even able to re-roll one hits and wounds, also you will have 30-60 Genestealers and some Tyrants charging you.
-SoB has the BEST alpha strike shooting in the game by far, they can have an entire army move 24" and shoot you with 30+ melta guns or 100+ SB's and HB's (most do a combo of the 3) at the same time Celestine charging. (you wont be able to stop her once she gets into your lines, unless you wanted to fall back and shoot your entire army at hear, which they want you to do that b.c she will comeback and DS someone else)
- BA and DA IMO should be able to have a very strong alpha shooting army also.

With THAT said, to stop 1st turn shooting you need to know what your fighting. Here are some tips:

1) If you are worried about AT, make sure to LoS block your important units, Venoms and Flyers dont need to be LoS as much as Raiders and Ravager. They have a -1 to hit and will take less damage over all.
2) Check the range, we can move 12+ and still shoot a 36" weapon, we have an easy 48" threat range. Try to out range their 48" guns if you can and ALWAYS out range 36" guns
3) Yes Scourges might be better for you, DSing is the best counter to Gunline
4) Against things with 48"+ no LoS shooting.. well you need to pretend that your less threatening units are more scary, use Venoms, Kabals, RWF, and other not threatening units hyper aggressive, trying to get to those units and tie them up. Make them scared of those units ans waste shooting, Spread out those threat also, using LoS terrain to make him use those No-LoS shooting weapons on them.
5) IMPORTANT- As you see most alpha shooting has lots of DS, my Imagine above is to show how to counter that also.

DSing will help you a lot if those are your problems.  I would for sure either take more Scourges or RWJF (they are cheap and more survivable than Ravagers).

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers or Scourges   Fri Jan 12 2018, 16:49

I would say no, Scourges work better in supporting Ravagers, finishing off their targets, but because of their lack of durability are not a replacement for them.
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers or Scourges   Fri Jan 12 2018, 19:47

Sorry in advance, been playing some Fire Emblem recently so I've been on the weapon triangle thought process. I mean no harm towards our lovely units, I'm just being harsh for the sake of the comparison.

So what I'm hearing is that the meta currently has a Rock-Paper-Scissors feel to it?
-Rock being Vehicles/Monstrous Creatures.
-Scissors being Elites good at CC.
-Paper being hordes of any shape or size.

Paper, when stacked thick enough or when rolled up are too thick for children's safety scissors to cut through. Sadly, we don't have the industrial, Heamonculi-crafted scissors that we used to have (Grotesques). Instead we're left with Anti-Scissor Scissors (Incubi), safety scissors (wyches), prison shanks (Reavers) and a set of rusty kitchen knifes (coven). Our only saving grace is our beast packs which act like dull box cutters. They might do the job for an enemy paper or two, but they have very little in the way of defense.

But back on topic, Scourges. Initially when deciding their gear, they are swiss army knives, able to become and do what you need them to. Splinter Cannons? Excellent dakka against paper. Dark Lances. Excellent Anti-Vehicle/Rock. Blasters? Pretty decent Anti-Scissors. Scourges are a scissors unit. Some might even say a Knife heated to 1000 degrees. They melt whatever they touch, but at what cost? They are rightly seen as a threat and are taken out quite quickly. Unless you have a Tantalus boosting into the enemy, loaded to the gills with troops, you can expect a fair amount of fire power to come their way.

Ravagers, A Vehicle, A Rock. Rocks are meant for either bashing against other rocks or for taking out scissors. Ravagers do this remarkably well. In comparison to other faction's vehicles which can be described as iron ore, our mainstay vehicles feel like they're made out of bronze or tin, a softer metal. It's when you factor in that they are equipped with Dark Lances (anti-rock) and Dissies (anti-scissors) that you realize that our rocks have freakin titanium nails embedded in them.

So at the end of the day, realize what their use is, what they are weak against and what your list needs in terms of what you can expect to go up against or if you think your list needs some redundancy.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers or Scourges   Fri Jan 12 2018, 21:13

Quote :
Splinter Cannons? Excellent dakka against paper.

Eh. Splinter cannons should never be taken on Scourges (not point efficient when compared to Carbines), and even if you take them, they are more of a Anti-MC than an anti-infantry. Poison sucks against infantry ^^

Scourges are not swiss army knives... they are like having a chestful of tools, but being only allowed to leave home with a hammer, a screwer or a brush.

For Scourges to be Swiss Army Knives they should basically have the Swooping Hawks ability to reembark in reserve, and then be allowed to swap their special/heavy equipment when they are in reserve. It wouldn't be illogical, and it would make them an incredible asset.

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