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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Fri Jan 12 2018, 21:40

I personally don't see it as too powerful. In previous editions if they fled and you caught them, the whole unit was wiped out. All you had to do was win combat by 1 and then they roll poorly. You could change it to d3 mortal wounds on a 4+ (3+ with shardnet), and then d6 for bloodbrides.

Just seems more fluffy that IF I could get a unit of 10 wyches into a unit of 30 conscripts, that if they fled then they would suffer heavy casualties. I'd be more likely to bring units of 20. Death by 1000 cuts, or flee and die.

I see lots of complaints about getting wyches into combat. I say that if you can get them into combat, the opponent is gonna pay for it if they try to back away. They don't want to lose terminators? Then stay in combat and alter your battle plan.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Fri Jan 12 2018, 21:50

Quote :
All you had to do was win combat by 1 and then they roll poorly.
Yep. You had to win combat. With wyches.

I think making "No escape" the main damage dealer for wyches is a bit silly : the opponent will not flee, and the rule will be practically useless.

What wyches need to have is a rule to prevent fleeing (like slaaneshi), AND have actual damage in CC.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Fri Jan 12 2018, 22:44

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
All you had to do was win combat by 1 and then they roll poorly.
Yep. You had to win combat. With wyches.

I think making "No escape" the main damage dealer for wyches is a bit silly : the opponent will not flee, and the rule will be practically useless.

What wyches need to have is a rule to prevent fleeing (like slaaneshi), AND have actual damage in CC.

If the opponent choose to not flee, then he'll be locked for 4 round by a small inexpensive unit. Worth it.
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Fri Jan 12 2018, 22:52

So... what should Wych damage output look like?

I kinda like the idea of "On a roll of 6+ to hit, generate an extra hit", along with changing up the combat drug to be +1 to hit instead of +1 weapon skill.

Combine that with a modification to razorflails to also give +1 to hit and to generate extra attacks on hits of 6+ (no generating extra attacks from extra attacks) and Wyches can potentially drown the enemy in Strength 3 hits.


Or they could just fight twice like beserkers.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Fri Jan 12 2018, 23:56

Personally, I would not mess with additional hit generation, just as I would not mess around with the wounding. These things should be purely managed via Wych Cult weapons and drugs.

If you are serious about balance and change any of these values you need to consider all possible combinations of drugs too (and assuming Wych Cult weapons are getting buffed and become equally good choices, you have to factor that in, too).

As for Razorflails, I'd simply make them deal an additional mortal wounds on a 6+. I have it mathhammered out. The reasoning behind it is that Hydra Gauntlets work better against GEQ while Razorflails focus more on MEQ, as well as Daemons.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Sat Jan 13 2018, 15:15

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
Personally, I would not mess with additional hit generation, just as I would not mess around with the wounding. These things should be purely managed via Wych Cult weapons and drugs.

If you are serious about balance and change any of these values you need to consider all possible combinations of drugs too (and assuming Wych Cult weapons are getting buffed and become equally good choices, you have to factor that in, too).

As for Razorflails, I'd simply make them deal an additional mortal wounds on a 6+. I have it mathhammered out. The reasoning behind it is that Hydra Gauntlets work better against GEQ while Razorflails focus more on MEQ, as well as Daemons.


I agree that the dynamic weaponry of the Dark Eldar is where we have the most flexibility to make a change. S & T should continue to be 3, but that doesn't mean DE shouldn't have access to weaponry, etc...that modify their base stats. So far the only modifications we have seen are thing like +1 to hit or re-roll 1s, I don't think we should be limited from strength modifiers, which is sorely needed to address the imbalance associated with fighting trash mobs of S2 & 3.

Our wound output suffers in this regard due to our low strength and 4+ poison.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Sat Jan 13 2018, 17:32

Wyches are our only source of melee S3. We have S2, S4, S5, S6, poisoned 4+, poisoned 2+...
IMO wyches need to stay at S3. If they go to S4, they become Khymeras. For me, wyches signature is LOTS of S3 attacks, some of them rerolling to wound (hydra gauntlets).

I'd be a great fan of Wyches having Death to false Emperor equivalent, with ways of getting +1 to hit (which would make them function like Striking Scorpions do, and allow some combo-wombo). If lelith gives +1 to hit as well, you could have units of wyches hitting on 2+, generating extra attacks on 3+. That would be TRUE synergy.


I'd also like them to get AP-1 on every weapon, and AP-2 on the impaler. I'd like No Escape to be auto-passed.

But I want them to stay wyches. There are tons of way to make a unit good.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Sat Jan 13 2018, 18:37

i think that we are focused on the attack, but if we compare this wyches with the wyches of the 5th edition, the true difference is in her durability. 4++ and "FnP"6+ nowadays vs 4++ and FnP4+.

Give wyches FnP5+. I don't know, maybe a new rule that stacks with the current 6+, or change the "amazing" 2+ of movement for 1+ or 2+ to Inured to suffering.

With the posibility of have a +1 or +2 to inured to suffering to all the wych cult i'm sure that most of us would think about roll on the table and not pick a specific bonus.

I know that this not gonna appen, but just changing something like these would give all wych cult and not only wyches other dimension.
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Sat Jan 13 2018, 20:44

I'd love to see DE units get their FNP 5+ back (no reason why wyches should be more Inured to pain than Wracks), but it's probably not going to happen.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Sat Jan 13 2018, 23:05

Eh, if I wanted survivability I'd be playing one of the sissy races that wears armour.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Mon Jan 15 2018, 09:13

@FuelDrop wrote:
Eh, if I wanted survivability I'd be playing one of the sissy races that wears armour.

This, I think the fnp on a 6 is fine, for coven I don't mind an imrprvement there, for wyches I would rather not have it.
The only change in defense I might want is that the dodge save count against any damage from 8" or less (so it will work against overwatch (unless you go for gambles) against pistols etc, anything that is already in your face has the problem, you try to move out of cc and shoot me, sure but normal guys will rarely be outside of our dodging range)

And wyches need some damage, I also prefer lots of s3 attacks (I don't think they need that much more as long as every attack has ap1 we are fine). Don't make the wyches the slaughterhouses, make them able to do some damage and keep them resonably affordable. If they have around 3 attacks and ap1 they are ok, they don't need a crap of bonus rules.
They still have an elite version, let the brides get the 4-5 attacks base and really wade trough enemy hordes.


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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Mon Jan 15 2018, 09:19

That's my opinion as well, i'd like Cult units to function like this :
- Wyches : cheap, tons of S3 attacks
- Hellions : cheapish, a bunch of high S, D2 damage
- Reavers : a bit more expensive, special weapons and mortal wounds.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Mon Jan 15 2018, 09:49

@Mppqlmd wrote:
That's my opinion as well, i'd like Cult units to function like this :
- Wyches : cheap, tons of S3 attacks
- Hellions : cheapish, a bunch of high S, D2 damage
- Reavers : a bit more expensive, special weapons and mortal wounds.

My problems with hellions right now are 2 fold, first they are to expensive and, d2 weapons without ap is against most opponents nearly useless.
Not sure the reavers need special weapons, just give them reliable mortal wounds (preferably with a driveby attack method), and let the scourges stay the mobile special weapon platform.
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Mon Jan 15 2018, 10:22

The problem with Hellions and Reavers (other than Insane point costs), they both are trying to shoot and melee.

Hellions need to be INSANE at anti-infantry
Reavers need to be INSANE at Elite shooting

Give them good roles, i want Hellions 2D to be removed and just give them Re-roll wounds against Infantry or something, just not 2D.


Wyches NEEDS to be cheaper, much cheaper, like 3pts cheaper lol, or 2pts and give them all -1ap.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Mon Jan 15 2018, 11:54

@amishprn86 wrote:
The problem with Hellions and Reavers (other than Insane point costs), they both are trying to shoot and melee.


I don't think this has to be a problem neccesarily, I actually kind of like it that the hellions are not abysmal at shooting, even if they are a melee unit foremost. I think it suits the dark eldar style quite well. Suspect

The problem is that hellions overpay for everything.
Yes they have a high move, but without advancing and charging their threat range is lower than that of other jumb style/ biker units. Yes they deal multiple wounds, but with average str and no ap, it rarely makes them good against multiple wound models. Yes they can both shoot and attack, but they actually shoot worse then a space marine without buffs or special weapons, and they fight similarly to a normal space marine against single wound targets.
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Mon Jan 15 2018, 12:04

Hellions have 2 Shots each ata ll times, more than the Reavers in general. They have more attacks as well, this is why i want them to be dedicated AI, the are Mass shooting/Attacks

Were Reavers are more of a Scalpel, they can move faster, smaller, better weapons, etc.. they need to be a dedicated Scalpel, if that makes since. Hence Elite hunting.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Mon Jan 15 2018, 15:29

Quote :
My problems with hellions right now are 2 fold, first they are to expensive and, d2 weapons without ap is against most opponents nearly useless.

It's super powerful against bikes and jetbikes. Not much use against everything else.

Quote :
Hellions have 2 Shots each ata ll times, more than the Reavers in general.

Assault 2 18" and Rapidfire 1 24" has the same value, IMO.
The real problem is that Reavers are twice the price without any consesuent advantage (other than 2HP).


My take on Hellions :
- A little point drops, some defensive ability (-1 to hit, or 5+ inv against shots, something like that), some utility on the Stunclaw, and maybe the ability to advance and charge, and they are good to go.

My take on reavers :
- A huge points drop (at least 10pts), the loss of 1 HP BUT 4+ inv against shots, a lot more mortal wounds on the special items (they are just gadgets now), and a solid rehaul of the Heatlance.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Mon Jan 15 2018, 23:13

So, switching gears a little bit...

Bloodbrides.

Honestly, I kinda think that paying +50% of the cost of a Wych for +1 attack is a total rip off. So what do you think should distinguish them? Special rules? More gear? Better stats? All of the above?

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Tue Jan 16 2018, 08:11

@amishprn86 wrote:
Hellions have 2 Shots each ata ll times, more than the Reavers in general. They have more attacks as well, this is why i want them to be dedicated AI, the are Mass shooting/Attacks

Were Reavers are more of a Scalpel, they can move faster, smaller, better weapons, etc.. they need to be a dedicated Scalpel, if that makes since. Hence Elite hunting.

Yes they have 2 shots at all times, but they lack the long range so I also say they are roughly equivalent in that regard, for a unit that is also melee oriented it usually means shooting and assaulting, thus I say you are nearly always in 12 inch anyway.
They have the same number of attacks.
Hellions deal 2d reavers have ap1. so against multiwound things hellions win, against the rest reavers.
Reavers have a pistol and are thougher thus they can survive attacks back better. which makes me say reavers are better against hordes (both are hugely overpriced so are bad against hordes anyway).

I think bloodbrides don't need a crap of special rules actually, same goes for the wyches themselves.
They already have pfp, drugs, no escape and dodge. Just give them more attacks and probably ap, around 4 or 5 attacks each and ap-1. The option to have some more wych weapons would also be welcomed.
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Tue Jan 16 2018, 09:01

2 shots + 2+ melee, they are close range AI, ALL of our AI is close range, im saying take them out of Elite killer, make Reavers Elite killers and Hellions pure AI.

10 Guys with 2 shots and mass melee vs 6 guys with 1-2 shots (not all with have Splinter, they will have 2 special weapons, Blasters or HL's etc..) and less attacks due to less models, see what i mean?

Its 12 shots and 13 melee- 25 total vs 20 and 21- 41 total, without drugs, Reavers want to use Special weapons that is part of their role.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Tue Jan 16 2018, 09:49

@amishprn86 wrote:
2 shots + 2+ melee, they are close range AI, ALL of our AI is close range, im saying take them out of Elite killer, make Reavers Elite killers and Hellions pure AI.

10 Guys with 2 shots and mass melee vs 6 guys with 1-2 shots (not all with have Splinter, they will have 2 special weapons, Blasters or HL's etc..) and less attacks due to less models, see what i mean?

Its 12 shots and 13 melee- 25 total vs 20 and 21- 41 total, without drugs, Reavers want to use Special weapons that is part of their role.

I am saying those special guns should not be part of their role. Let that be done by the scourges.

I think we see them differently. Right now both units try to be bad against both hordes and elites, we might disagree on which unit should do what, but we agree they should be more focussed on their target.

I see hellions as real glass cannons, so they need to kill what they touch, so small elite units are preferable.
Reavers are though enough to survive attacks back from non elite units, hence I put them against hordes.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Tue Jan 16 2018, 18:54

If you follow the lore :
- Hellions should be super expendable overly-fragile pleb killers (no military training, no armor, and they NEVER actually had to kill someone in armor, so tragically, their lack of AP makes a lot of sense).
For me, they could keep their current profile (with some "Dodging" inv. save and some "Run and assault" rule), but they should be expendables. Those guys are just thugs cosplaying as Green Goblins.

- Reavers should be a bit more expensive, though nothing fancy. They should be the elite killers, as they are often recruted to attack convoys and ships. It thus makes a lot of sense to give them cluster mines and heatlances.
For me, they need a massive rehaul, with less defensive ability, less CC power, but actually useable Heatlances, A LOT damage on their special items (CCT and GT), and practically cost 15 less points. A "Dodge" inv save against shots would be thematic as well.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Tue Jan 16 2018, 19:01

What if Hellions had 2 profiles on their weapon?
- single handed: +1 S, +1 attack, D1
- double handed, +1S, D2

Having 3 attacks at S5 or 4 attacks at S4 per Hellion (drugs) would make them quite attractive to me. The Helliarch gets another +1A. This would significantly increase their threat coverage.

You can still use the double handed profile against characters, bugs and bikes but could could also mop up troop choices.

However, I think it would make most sense to give them Jink (back). Aka, they can choose to get a 5++ but also suffer from BS 6+ in the following round. Suddenly Hellions are somewhat more survivable and might even get to attack in a sizeable number.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Tue Jan 16 2018, 19:07

Basically, they would be a bit like the Troll Slayers from WHFB (could chose at all time between 2 axes and a 2 handed axe).
Quote :

Having 3 attacks at S5 or 4 attacks at S4
Dunno how you got these numbers ^^
With the profile you suggested, it would be 3 attacks at S4 D1, or 2 attacks at S4 D2, with either +1 to A or +1 to S.


Another alternative would be to make Spinter Pods function a bit like Shotguns. They could be Assault 4 at 5", assault 3 at 9", assault 2 at 14" and assault 1 at 18". They would become a good candidate for Deepstriking.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Tue Jan 16 2018, 19:14

@Mppqlmd wrote:
If you follow the lore :
- Hellions should be super expendable overly-fragile pleb killers (no military training, no armor, and they NEVER actually had to kill someone in armor, so tragically, their lack of AP makes a lot of sense).
For me, they could keep their current profile (with some "Dodging" inv. save and some "Run and assault" rule), but they should be expendables. Those guys are just thugs cosplaying as Green Goblins.

- Reavers should be a bit more expensive, though nothing fancy. They should be the elite killers, as they are often recruted to attack convoys and ships. It thus makes a lot of sense to give them cluster mines and heatlances.
For me, they need a massive rehaul, with less defensive ability, less CC power, but actually useable Heatlances, A LOT damage on their special items (CCT and GT), and practically cost 15 less points. A "Dodge" inv save against shots would be thematic as well.

This^

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