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FuelDrop
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: No Escape and deterrent   Wed Jan 10 2018, 11:00

So I've been thinking and toying with some things. One of those things is No Escape.

It seems to me that a major problem with this rule is that it doesn't do anything to discourage attempting to fall back every turn. Given it's lack of reliability, the fact that there's no reason not to test it every turn if you're losing the combat makes it even less valuable.


So I was thinking: What if there was a deterrent, to make attempting to flee from Wyches a bit more of a risk?

Something like: If a unit fails its roll to escape from this unit, this unit gains +1 attack until the end of the turn.

That might make people think twice before trying their luck. Thoughts?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Wed Jan 10 2018, 11:16

To bring it more in line with current codexes, if a unit attempts to fall back from combat with a unit with this ability and fails to do so the unit with this ability may immediately be chosen to fight as if it were the Fight phase.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Wed Jan 10 2018, 12:16

I mean that would be awesome, but I didn't want to push my luck.

It would definitely make people think twice before trying to escape, wouldn't it?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Wed Jan 10 2018, 12:40

Of course, being Wyches, GW would probably give them this ability whilst leaving their damage output where it is now (somewhere between zero and a minor graze).

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Wed Jan 10 2018, 13:03

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Of course, being Wyches, GW would probably give them this ability whilst leaving their damage output where it is now (somewhere between zero and a minor graze).

I mean, if there were some way for them to get a dozen fight phases per turn those minor grazes might start adding up.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Wed Jan 10 2018, 13:04

I'd be content if the ability simply had a higher chance of success. It works on a straight 3+ and if you have the Shardnet equipped this becomes a 2+.

Furthermore, the Succubus allows re-rolling No Escape tests within 9" and we have a rule that we can make super reliable.

Alternatively, I'd suggest that the enemy makes a roll for each Wych/enemy unit and takes a corresponding amount of mortal wounds.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Wed Jan 10 2018, 13:06

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
I'd be content if the ability simply had a higher chance of success. It works on a straight 3+ and if you have the Shardnet equipped this becomes a 2+.

Furthermore, the Succubus allows re-rolling No Escape tests within 9" and we have a rule that we can make super reliable.

Alternatively, I'd suggest that the enemy makes a roll for each Wych/enemy unit and takes a corresponding amount of mortal wounds.

The only problem with the 3+ with shardnet making 2+ is the diminishing returns on the already unpopular shardnet and impaler.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Wed Jan 10 2018, 13:17

I'm sure if Wyches are to be changed it wouldnt only affect the No Escape rules (which imo, is the least of their worries). The Wych Cult weapon balance is broken and needs a revamp regardless, however a +2 No Escape would be a good asset to have.

A 3+ would already be very reasonable. Personally, I'd be excited with the Succubus having a No Escale re-roll aura because that would mean I could field her alone and have a reliable way of No Escape even without playing Cult.

And when I have 4 Wyches with special weapons (10 model squad), it's not a huge bummer to have one not having Hydra Gauntlets. Least of all, the Impaler should have a normal amount of attacks like the other Wych weapons.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Wed Jan 10 2018, 13:25

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
I'm sure if Wyches are to be changed it wouldnt only affect the No Escape rules (which imo, is the least of their worries). The Wych Cult weapon balance is broken and needs a revamp regardless, however a +2 No Escape would be a good asset to have.

A 3+ would already be very reasonable. Personally, I'd be excited with the Succubus having a No Escale re-roll aura because that would mean I could field her alone and have a reliable way of No Escape even without playing Cult.

And when I have 4 Wyches with special weapons (10 model squad), it's not a huge bummer to have one not having Hydra Gauntlets. Least of all, the Impaler should have a normal amount of attacks like the other Wych weapons.

Thought. what if Shardnets give +1 to No Escape and enemy leadership checks, representing those too entangled to fight rather than those actually killed. Having +3 on the enemy's leadership roll (potentially 3 extra casualties) is nothing to sniff at!
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Wed Jan 10 2018, 15:45

- No escape rule : enemy non-vehicle units may not fall back when engaged with wyches. Make it work against Crisis Smile

- Shardnet and Impaler : lots of options here. You could see something like this : +1 attack (it's dual weilding after all), AP-1. Any model slain by this model counts as 2 casualties for moral checks.

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Wed Jan 10 2018, 19:18

I personally think it would be cooler(albeit impractical) if they made each faction (kabal, wych cult and coven) have their own power from pain table that was dependent on Warlord choice and the No Escape rule could become better over time or something.

Or another option would be to steal a card from Ynnari and to make the buff occur when a unit nearby dies or loses a model. The Drukhari are empowered by their pain and become more berserk in their attacks or something.

But if we spend all day coming up with ideas like this, we'd have to move this into the rules suggestion page.

Do you think the Blood Brides and Succubus should have a better chance than just normal wyches at chasing units that are falling back? Should the rule itself be changed into an immediate consolidation move? Normally the reason an opponent would want to even fall back their unit is because they are either 1. dying to your wyches or 2. More effective with their shooting than locked in combat for a turn or two. What is the best way to make this rule:
-Fluffy
-Stupid-Simple
-Effective

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Wed Jan 10 2018, 20:35

Or or ... Once again bowing to she who thirsts ... Why doesn't "no escape" work like the fiend of slaanesh where unless the unit has "fly" they can't fall back at all? And the succubus and the shardnet makes it to where even "fly" can't escape anymore? ...
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Thu Jan 11 2018, 03:37

I think I missed something. Why would anyone *want* to run away from a group of wyches?

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Thu Jan 11 2018, 03:46

@clively wrote:
I think I missed something.   Why would anyone *want* to run away from a group of wyches?  

You beat me to it! I was absolutely about to put this. There is no reason to run for this group. They don't do any damage. Made even worse by the big increase in invulnerable saves in Codexed armies.

Keeping this in-line with codex rules I've seen, there is no rolling, groups cannot run. We need to land more wounds and/or we need more access to generating mortal wounds. With wyches and elsewhere.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Thu Jan 11 2018, 07:21

Well, I alluded to that in my earlier post but there are situations where you need to run away, not because of what the Wyches are doing to you, but because of what they're stopping you from doing, ie shooting. Charging a squad of Obliterators, SM Dev Squad, Tau Crisis Team etc stops them from shooting, which is what they want to be doing.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Thu Jan 11 2018, 08:35

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Well, I alluded to that in my earlier post but there are situations where you need to run away, not because of what the Wyches are doing to you, but because of what they're stopping you from doing, ie shooting. Charging a squad of Obliterators, SM Dev Squad, Tau Crisis Team etc stops them from shooting, which is what they want to be doing.

I dunno. Throwing a squad of Wyches against hard core melee units like Devastator Squads seems like you're just asking for them to charge, get killed off, then the devvies go back to plugging away at the rest of your army like nothing happened.
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Thu Jan 11 2018, 09:13

@FuelDrop wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Well, I alluded to that in my earlier post but there are situations where you need to run away, not because of what the Wyches are doing to you, but because of what they're stopping you from doing, ie shooting. Charging a squad of Obliterators, SM Dev Squad, Tau Crisis Team etc stops them from shooting, which is what they want to be doing.

I dunno. Throwing a squad of Wyches against hard core melee units like Devastator Squads seems like you're just asking for them to charge, get killed off, then the devvies go back to plugging away at the rest of your army like nothing happened.

Even against hardcore melee units like that there is a vague chance the Wyches won't get shot to pieces before they even get to charge, won't die to overwatch, won't bounce off the power armour and won't run away having failed a morale test. And in that event, No Escape could, potentially, be a useful rule. If it wasn't so random and unreliable.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Thu Jan 11 2018, 09:24

... I miss 5th edition.
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Thu Jan 11 2018, 09:46

I hope we do get a flat unless they have the fly keyword they can't fall back. Wyches still need some over watch protection and dodge should be use able against pistols 1 inch away.
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Thu Jan 11 2018, 15:08

You rarely run from wyches because they deal damage, people run away because wyches stop you from dealing damage or from moving to where ever you need to be. (holding a character in melee so the rest of his army either has to stay put or lose the rerolls is quite nice as well.)
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Thu Jan 11 2018, 15:42

I rather Wyches be more like Daemonettes, just remove No escape.

Give them the No escape rule on the Net and male that like 15pts, that way we can make Wyches better in the right ways while still letting them keep that role if we want.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Fri Jan 12 2018, 17:00

How about this: only change the wounds wyches deal to be mortal wounds. Then No Escape would have meaning.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Fri Jan 12 2018, 17:06

When a unit is attempting to back away from combat, roll a d6 for every wych in your unit. On a 4+ the fleeing unit is dealt a mortal wound. If a shard net/impaler is present, that wych needs a 2+

Succubus allows unit to reroll fails, and deals d3 mortal wounds
Lelith allows rerolls and deals d6 mortal wounds

Wyches would be a good tie up unit. They may not do a lot of damage on their normal attacks. But they are meant to tie up key shooting units for their opponent. Does the opponent want to waste time whittling away at a 4++ unit in melee while taking some casualties, or do they want to escape and get their shots off but risk mortal wounds to be able to do it?

Also add in that pistols cannot be used against them in combat.
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Fri Jan 12 2018, 18:59

Quote :
When a unit is attempting to back away from combat, roll a d6 for every wych in your unit. On a 4+ the fleeing unit is dealt a mortal wound. If a shard net/impaler is present, that wych needs a 2+

Succubus allows unit to reroll fails, and deals d3 mortal wounds

So a 10 wych unit deals 7-8 mortal wounds ? XD

That would the the same as "Enemy can't fall back".


Quote :

Also add in that pistols cannot be used against them in combat.

Or, more realistically, apply the 4+ invulnerable against every attack made from a unit engaged in combat with them. And if you roll a 6 on the Inv save, the unit takes a MW.

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape and deterrent   Fri Jan 12 2018, 19:45

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
When a unit is attempting to back away from combat, roll a d6 for every wych in your unit. On a 4+ the fleeing unit is dealt a mortal wound. If a shard net/impaler is present, that wych needs a 2+

Succubus allows unit to reroll fails, and deals d3 mortal wounds

So a 10 wych unit deals 7-8 mortal wounds ? XD

That would the the same as "Enemy can't fall back".

Yeah, That would seem a bit ridiculous for something falling back like Terminators or Space Marines. Even Bikes. The Wyches' ability to kill would sky rocket. Maybe find a way to factor in the Wyches speed into the equation. When falling back, Opponent must beat your roll with a modifier of (their unit speed- wych movement speed). That would actually make the movement drug worth taking on a H-YUGE unit of wyches. Just tie up everything.


Quote :

Also add in that pistols cannot be used against them in combat.

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Or, more realistically, apply the 4+ invulnerable against every attack made from a unit engaged in combat with them. And if you roll a 6 on the Inv save, the unit takes a MW.

A riposte/parry/counter from a gun shot seems a little unfluffy to me. I'd say keep the 4+ against pistol attacks, make the 6+ only against CC attacks. Would be interesting against lots of attacks like Orks or Berserkers.[/quote]

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