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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Thu Jan 04 2018, 14:01

Imo, Wyches have an identity crisis. Essentially, they are melee GEQ++ that cannot be spammed. But despite their price, they are not an elite unit either. The best comparison are Quinn Troupes which encompass the essence of an elite troop choice. Wyches should fit the theme that our own army should follow: Guard like model stats with space marine grade weapons and excellent/unique use.

The only remotely redeeming aspect for Wyches are Hydra Wyches, but for 13pts you are better off with Troupes right from the start. And a couple Hydra Wyches + Hekatrix can't pull enough weight on their own either.

Then we have the issue of support. Re-rolling a 2+ is a laughable HQ buff for a non combat monster to say the least. Wyches don't need to kill berserkers or genestealers in melee. We can shoot what we don't want in melee and Wyches should tie up and\or kill shooty units that we don't want to expose our ranged units to. Wyches should focus around this aspect and not be treated as elite units anymore. They are just scum that we send into raids to occupy enemies and promote the surviving Wyches to Hekatrices.

Considering the weaknesses of Wyches, 7pts are more reasonable, with 9pts for Hydra Wyches. No Escape should work on a straight 3+, or a 2+ with the Shardnet. Succubi should allow re-rolling 1s to hit and to wound as well as re-rolling No Escape.
They should be weak and easy to kill in the open, but be worth their weight in gold once they are in combat. This is what sets them apart from Troupes: Easy to shoot off the board, but nearly as effective for a fraction of their costs. No Escape is part of their survival strategy and tactical useage as well.

This would be a good starting point, considering the power level of other Codices you could go even further but with the changes above they would work for me. I think Wyches have all the rules to be good units, but they are all badly implemented.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Thu Jan 04 2018, 20:50

So.. dont look at Genestealers compare to them either...(espceially bloodbrides)

5 is 60pts for 3 attacks, advance + charge, always 5++, S/T of 4, 1 per 4 gets a "free" power sword, all are -1ap on 6's -4ap., if unit stays 10 or more, they gain +1 attack. They get a free optional weapon that is made for hordes with low saves or Invul only saves, gives them re-rolls of 1's to hit (they lose ap)

I would put Wyches are 7pts as well and give them all "Wounds of 6 are -2ap"

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Rodi Sikni
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Thu Jan 04 2018, 21:05

I don't want a points reduction on the Wyches, because that's doesn't exist, is a fake.

10 wyches, with 3 hydra gauntlets and hekatrix with agoniser, 106pts + raider (115), 221 pts. Reduce them to 7pts and the total will be 201pts (-10% aprox). You still will be payin 201pts for a unit that is good for nothing. Reduce them to 6pts and you could include 5 wyches more in your army, and then pay 80pts for a venom to try to do something whith the unit.

Dark eldar units are pure glass, so we need vehicles. If the points of units are reduced, you will add more units and then pay more vehicles. That's not the way. I don't want "tax units" that his only utility is unblock vehicles.

I want useful units. I don't expect that 200pts of wyches defeats 200pts of terminators, but if I expend 100pts onto a troop that is especialzed on close combat like wyches and I assault with them 100pts of a troop isn't especialzed on close combat like a Tactical Squad, I want to be sure that the probabilities are with me.

So, i really hope that make the cheaper the units is not the plan of GW to us. I prefer useful units, even if it means expensive units.


Last edited by Rodi Sikni on Thu Jan 04 2018, 21:15; edited 1 time in total
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Thu Jan 04 2018, 21:11

Our transports should be getting points reductions, too. Raiders costing 115 points is outrageous and even Venoms look expensive when compared to a Vyper or a Starweaver.

I'd like to see a clearer distinction between Wyches and Bloodbrides. Want your cheap, relatively disposable melee unit? Take Wyches. Want your terrifying elite combat monsters? Take Bloodbrides.

Having them be practically the same unit is a bit rubbish.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Thu Jan 04 2018, 21:38

Yeah... after playing Quins like 20 games now..... Venoms are literally trash on poles, its sad b.c i have 9 of them.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Fri Jan 05 2018, 09:26

@Rodi Sikni wrote:
I don't want a points reduction on the Wyches, because that's doesn't exist, is a fake.

10 wyches, with 3 hydra gauntlets and hekatrix with agoniser, 106pts + raider (115), 221 pts. Reduce them to 7pts and the total will be 201pts (-10% aprox). You still will be payin 201pts for a unit that is good for nothing. Reduce them to 6pts and you could include 5 wyches more in your army, and then pay 80pts for a venom to try to do something whith the unit.

Dark eldar units are pure glass, so we need vehicles. If the points of units are reduced, you will add more units and then pay more vehicles. That's not the way. I don't want "tax units" that his only utility is unblock vehicles.

I want useful units. I don't expect that 200pts of wyches defeats 200pts of terminators, but if I expend 100pts onto a troop that is especialzed on close combat like wyches and I assault with them 100pts of a troop isn't especialzed on close combat like a Tactical Squad, I want to be sure that the probabilities are with me.

So, i really hope that make the cheaper the units is not the plan of GW to us. I prefer useful units, even if it means expensive units.

I think 7 points for wyches is not that bad. Let the bloodbrides be the expensive variant, whose fighting prowess should be equal to troupes.
It also means that for once it will be a choice to take them in a transport or not. Sure they will get shot of the board very fast, but if we can have another 10 (instead of a venom) or another 15 instead of a raider, you have to make a decision, do you want to have 25 wyches who have only move 8-10 and t3 or do you want 10 wyches in a raider with t5 and move 14?
If the wyches will cost around 150 points for 5-10 with no additional defenses just better attacks the raider/venom will become no brainers again. Wyches are some of the fastest (non jumb) infantry, so allow them to use their own movement value instead of assuming a tax of a cardboard box.
Not to say that our vehicles do not deserve a small price decrease (or different versions depending on cult/kabal/coven, so the pricing can be determined on the use of special rules like open topped or +1 toughness)
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Fri Jan 05 2018, 09:31

Unless GW fixes Wyches offensive capability they will never find a place in most DE armies.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Fri Jan 05 2018, 09:49

They need both, they need to be 7 and 9 pts with -1ap always, weapons give an additional -1ap.

Net needs to make No escape always win the roll, and can work on Non-Infantry (but with a roll off)

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Fri Jan 05 2018, 09:52

So the way I see it, Wyches have gone "all in" on melee in a way no other unit has. No other unit is both as elite in lore as wyches, and so incredibly, singlemindedly focused on melee as to give up functionally all defense against ranged weapons.

Furthermore, no other unit is so entirely skill based in melee. Assault marines have jump packs, power armour, and heavy augmentation. Genestealers are literally bioengineered for the task of killing things in melee. Orks have a big toothy grin, a massive choppa, superhuman strength and durability, and sheer enthusiasm.
Wyches have speed and skill, and are generally veterans of centuries of combat. Their stats should reflect:

1) Superhuman speed. Wyches should be terrifyingly fast in movement, attack and defense. They need assault after advance, and fight twice per fight phase. Because as it is your average Ork Boy is faster than them, in pretty much every respect.
Dodge is the only area in which their speed is accurately reflected, and even then it needs to apply to Overwatch and Pistol fire within combat.

2) Unmatched skill. Wyches are supposed to be among the most skilled warriors in the galaxy. They don't use power weapons because they don't need them! They are JUST. THAT. GOOD.
Now the fact that they quickly get the +1 to hit from PFP is good, but they need rending. their complete lack of offensive punch is quite frankly a bad joke, given that they have no use outside of close combat and die faster than guardsmen in such circumstances. So give them either native AP -1 or native rending, or at worst give them attack generation on 6+. Combine that with the fight twice rule and they become downright competent through sheer weight of attacks.

3) Bloodbrides should be terrifying.
Bloodbrides should not be some lazy upgrade of Wyches. +1 attack +1 leadership for +50% cost on an already overpriced unit? Are you kidding?!? Yes, keep the +1 attack, but give them something unique to represent that these are among the most elite warriors in the entire galaxy, often having more combined experience than entire squads of first company space marine veterans! They should be THE high bar for melee offense in an elite unit of their points range, because they are still T3 with 6+ armour outside of combat. Getting charged by Bloodbrides should be a death sentence for any non-melee specced infantry, and a dangerous prospect for even other melee experts. Because that madwoman with the kitchen knife is JUST. THAT. GOOD.

EDIT: Homogaunts match Wyches defensively against ranged, but they are also dirt cheap cannon fodder that is spawned in the billions and has a lifespan of a few days.

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Koldan
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Fri Jan 05 2018, 18:57

Just try to see the positive in them, with 7 points, they would be alittle too cheap. Just compare them with daemonettes, wich cost 7 points, wyches are faster, have a range attack, even grenades, have in cc a better invulnerable save, daemonettes can use their save outside of combat, but wyches can hide in transporter, daemonettes have quicksilver swiftness and wyches pfp and their drugs, and wyches are immune to the new slaanesh warlord trait, only the hekatrix would lose one attack. While with troupes it would reduce their damage by 25% and daemonettes by 50%. The big advantage, if you get additional attacks from your weapons and have them not directly added to the profile value.

Or look at Bloodletters, at turn 1 or turn 2 directly after a charge Bloodletters have the same damage output vs wyches with the strength +1 drug, but wyches have a better invulnerable save and feel no pain. In the following close combat turns wyches will mop the floor with the bloodletters, and in between shoot their pistols at them.

For me it looks like wyches are maybe alittle too specialised, but it looks like they could be quite nice vs. daemons, where rend is not as usefull, not that anyone in my local meta is playing daemons. And i am pretty sure with the codex we will get something like quicksilver swiftness also for wyches.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Fri Jan 05 2018, 19:50

Daemonettes also always go 1st, always have a 5++, -1ap with -4 on 6's, +1 attacks with a large unit.

So to me, Always going 1st and always 4++ is equal to No escape and 4++ in melee.
Always -1ap and can get -4ap is already better than Wyches
This isnt counting the upgrades they can get also.

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Koldan
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Fri Jan 05 2018, 20:10

Yes i said they are specialised, as in they are good vs daemons, not that they are better then daemons vs. a unit where -4 ap really matters. Wyches can hold their own vs. the troop choices of the daemons quite good, i would say some elite choices may also struggle with them. If you would reduce the point cost of wyches, you would make them extrely overpowered vs daemons.

You forgot the ranged weapons and that wyches also have uprades, one drug, weapons for the hekatrix and some mediocre special weapons, overall i think this upgrades are better then the upgrades for daemonettes.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Fri Jan 05 2018, 20:25

I don't know ... Just looking at the Slaanesh preview today makes me think full Slaanesh army would feel more DE than DE currently do ... All Bow to Our new Mistress of Excess ... The keeper of Secrets ... I might actually play a couple games with my wife's slaanesh army after the codex drops just to see how well it works ...
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Fri Jan 05 2018, 21:48

I was saying Daemonettes are better lol.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Mon Jan 08 2018, 08:47

Assume against a space marine

our wyches, used best drug (extra attack) and but not yet turn 3+
3 attacks 2 hits 0.67 wounds 0.22 after saves +(shot) 1, 0.667, 0.33, 0.11
slanesh, unsure about the stats but assume ws 3+ s3 rending
2 attacks 1.33 hits 0.22 (-4ap)+0.22 (-1ap) wounds 0.33 after saves
So we do not strike first, and need the shot just to get the same amount of damage even though we do not get it in the enemy turn, even if we do fight there.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Mon Jan 08 2018, 10:34

In equal points, lets say 108pts and the Daemonettes are taking the 10pt unit upgrade to add +1 advance/charge.

Wych unit is 8 wyches, 2 HG's 1 Hex without weapon
Daemonettes is 13

Wyches: Turn 3
+1 Attack: 25 S3: 2.31 wounds    HG: 1.39   Total: 3.7 Dead SM
+1 Strnth: 19 S4: 2.64 wounds    HG: 1.25   Total: 3.89 Dead SM
On average a 3-4 dead SM's

Daemonetters
3+, S3, 2A (3A on sarge) 27 attacks: -1AP -4 on 6
18 hits: Total: 4.5 Dead SM

I think i did my math correctly. I double check but it is 5am lol.
So from my math Deamonettes do more damage at equal points.

But what i hate about this is, these are dedicated melee units that needs to whither the shooting phases and get to the targets before doing the damage, and only able to kill a few marines.... this is freaking sad. equal points in a Leman Russ is just better. If we took 200pts of melee (2x10 units of wyches with 3 weapons) a Dis Cannon Ravager or RWJF would be better in every way possible.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Mon Jan 08 2018, 12:22

Quote :
But what i hate about this is, these are dedicated melee units that needs to whither the shooting phases and get to the targets before doing the damage, and only able to kill a few marines.... this is freaking sad. equal points in a Leman Russ is just better. If we took 200pts of melee (2x10 units of wyches with 3 weapons) a Dis Cannon Ravager or RWJF would be better in every way possible.

It's quite surprizing, but i think melee got a big nerf in 8th edition. Lemme explain :

Melee units have always been weaker in stats than shooting units, for a simple reason : you get to attack during your turn, AND the enemy turn. Once in CC, a unit doubles its opportunity to deal damage. So to compensate that, GW had to keep the average CC profile a bit under the average shooting profile.

BUT... what happened in 8th edition ? Disengaging ! Now, if your enemy doesn't want to be attacked during his turn... he can avoid it. And basically, this divides the damage output of dedicated CC unit by half. But GW doesn't seem to have realized that, and continues to build CC profiles with the "double combat phase" in mind.

So I just think 8th edition is actually a shooting edition, because of the omnipresent disengage ability.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Mon Jan 08 2018, 12:31

My Quins love 8th melee shenanigans lol, just the average CC unit got hit.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Mon Jan 08 2018, 12:32

Why they made the disengage option automatic, rather than requiring a Ld test, is utterly beyond me. Because falling back intact from combat would seem to be pretty much the definition of an act requiring leadership!

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Mon Jan 08 2018, 19:32

Because then they wouldn't be able to make wyches one of the "most improved units" in the game with the simple fact of giving them an ability that has a small chance of cancelling out the disengagement. If it was a leadership test than there would be no point in giving wyches this and accepting that they actually need a tad bit of work and balancing to actually achieve the level of power they deserve
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Mon Jan 08 2018, 21:31

@Archon_91 wrote:
Because then they wouldn't be able to make wyches one of the "most improved units" in the game with the simple fact of giving them an ability that has a small chance of cancelling out the disengagement. If it was a leadership test than there would be no point in giving wyches this and accepting that they actually need a tad bit of work and balancing to actually achieve the level of power they deserve

Well, that's easily fixed. Wyches have an ability that gives a penalty to the Ld roll required to disengage. Sorted!

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