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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Wyches vs cultists.   Sat Dec 30 2017, 23:24

So, been doing some headmath.

5 wyches is 5 points more than 10 melee cultists. I am not factoring in legion tactics because it is index vs codex. wargear comment will be at the end. So let's take a look at them.

Wounds: 5 vs 10.
Saves: 6+ 4++ 6+++ vs 6+
Hit: 3+ (2+ with drugs or turn 3+) vs 4+
Attacks: 11 (16 with drugs) vs 21
Strength: 3 (4 with drugs) vs 3
Move: 8 (10 with drugs) vs 6
Toughness 3 (4 with drugs) vs 3
Leadership 8 (from leader, 10 with drugs) vs 6 (with leader)

As far as ranged attacks, while the cultists are less accurate both squads wound each other on 4+ most of the time, and the cultists have twice as many pistols.

So. First off, Wyches definitely have the better raw statline most of the time. However, when it counts...

Durability:
having twice as many bodies is quite comparable to the 4++ save, with almost the same number of melee wounds required to take down either squad on average. If the weapons lack an AP value then the cultists are marginally more durable due to the 6+ kicking in twice because of the two wounds rather than the 6+++ kicking in once. But having more bodies also helps with surviving ranged firepower, which dodge does not. Wyches can take +1 toughness to make themselves more durable, but by doing so they sacrifice...

Melee offense: Before drugs, Wyches are laughably outclassed by cultists in offense. they have a +1 to hit, but with half the number of attacks that is too little too late. if you factor in drugs then you get them about on level with the cultists, and they pull ahead a bit come turn 3. Still, that isn't exactly a ringing endorsement... with your special abilities you are as good at your specialty as almost equal points of cannon fodder, ignoring their special rules. Because if we gave the cultists the extra 10 attacks on the charge from butchers nails, then Wyches become completely outclassed here even with drugs.

Mobility: Wyches win this category without drugs... by a whole 2 inches! I mean over the course of a whole game that adds up to around an extra 12" of movement, which is not bad. Cultists do have ways around this which put them ahead of the wyches, but those are beyond the scope of this comment.

Leadership and Intangibles:
Wyches have the better leadership in a vacuum. end of story. Cultists can get better through supporting characters ect, but that is outside of the scope of this comparison.

Wyches do get no escape. This is good, but really unreliable. The cultists get more shooting, which means they are more likely to do a wound in overwatch if charged by the wyches than the other way around, and can do more to soften up wyches before a charge, even factoring in grenades.

Wyches get reroll advance and charge from turn 2 onward, which is legit good and makes them more reliable. They also have faster transports, though Rhinos are significantly more durable and Chaos Rhinos can be outfitted with enough firepower to make a Venom weep salty tears.


So, on to wargear. Wyches get access to hydra gauntlets and some squad leader weapons. Fantastic, but one problem: Cultists get access to a flamer. One gun literally makes Wyches obsolete.



Within the scope of a melee fight optimized wyches with the right drugs stack up around even with melee cultists. Take a drug other than +A, +S or +T and you're just flat outclassed by the cheaper cannon fodder, though.

The major problems with this are:
>Cultists survive shooting better.
>Cultists shoot better.
>Cultists are not melee specialists, they're a generalist unit that can be outfitted for melee or range.
>if the Cultists take one very common special weapon they are functionally immune to wyches, barring clever charges.
>point for point cultists benefit twice as much from cover.
>Cultists do get access to Legion tactics, which can do anything from assault after advancing (making them faster than Wyches) to +1 attack on the charge (meaning that if they get the charge off they have 3x the attacks the wyches do, an insurmountable advantage) to Always Strikes First, to -1 to hit beyond 12" and infiltration, ect.
>Cultists have better support. They get psykers, dark apostles, exalted champions, chaos lords and demon princes to help them if they need it. Wyches get the succubus, and that's it. And I want to be clear, while putting force multipliers on cultists is wasteful that doesn't negate the fact that it is an option, and just having a Dark Apostle nearby gives the cultists leadership 9 (better than undrugged wyches) and reroll failed hits in the fight phase. All failed hits, not just 1's.

Just from being the right legion and having some friends nearby a 40 point squad of cultists can put out 31 attacks rerolling failed hits and wounds on the charge. Late-game Wyches with a succubus wish they could do that.



In summary: Assuming no weapons or support on either side, 45 points of wyches are almost as good as 40 points of cultists in melee, ignoring legion tactics. Once other factors come into play, Wyches start looking worse and worse very quickly.






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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Sun Dec 31 2017, 01:15

Wyches are rules bloat, its DE weakness. No Escape, Drugs, better WS/BS, Movement, 4++ in melee, etc.. are why they are costly.

Wyches just dont do their jobs at all so therefore they are overcosted.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Sun Dec 31 2017, 02:23

Don't forget the non-sense about poisoned pistols on a GEQ killer troop.

Either you're facing High Toughness value, and your attacks are useless
Or you're facing Low Toughness value, and your pistol is useless

Way to design a good unit !

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Sun Dec 31 2017, 02:51

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Don't forget the non-sense about poisoned pistols on a GEQ killer troop.

Either you're facing High Toughness value, and your attacks are useless
Or you're facing Low Toughness value, and your pistol is useless

Way to design a good unit !

That makes them flexible! Razz

But yeah, the GEQ killer is beaten by this inferior GEQ in their own specialty.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Sun Dec 31 2017, 08:01

They could lose no escape and gain an extra attack or an attack again ability without having to pay a point for a stratagem. Or just drop no escape and get wyches for lower points.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Sun Dec 31 2017, 08:30

I would like them to drop No escape and have -1AP with wounds of 6's are -2ap. I mean they are gladiator fighters meant to know the weakness of their enemies......

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Sun Dec 31 2017, 09:09

@lament.config wrote:
They could lose no escape and gain an extra attack or an attack again ability without having to pay a point for a stratagem. Or just drop no escape and get wyches for lower points.

I would rather have wyches better than make them cheaper.

Here's a thought for redoing No Escape:
If a unit falls back from a squad with this special rule, this squad may move d6+2 inches. if at least one member of this squad ends this move within 1" of the enemy that fell back, that enemy is still locked in combat with this squad.

This free move cannot bring the squad within 1" of another enemy unit unless that unit is within 1" of the unit falling back, in which case the pursuing unit can engage both squads though they do not get the charge bonus this turn.

+2 movement drug also gives +2" to this pursuit move.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Sun Dec 31 2017, 15:41

Well this put an interesting though into my head ... And shows, at least a little, the thought process of the balance they put into the index (we can't really fairly do these comparisons without our own codex and that was considered in the op ... But I know why we do them) 45 points of wyches is roughly equal to 45 points of cultists (and possibly 45 points of any other unit that can be melee specialized) and that's looking at the rules, gear, and (hear me out) aura's each unit has available to them. Rerolling 1's from the succubus on wyches is basically "reroll misses", yes I know not for the first two turns, or if the wyches take the +1 ws drug. The Hydra gauntlets give reroll wounds (I know it isn't the entire squad but it is one model at AP -1) so looking at it like that ... They are close to equal (as close as they wanted to make the at least)
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Sun Dec 31 2017, 18:27

Wyches = way too much variability = inconsistency = shelved.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Mon Jan 01 2018, 00:20

@Archon_91 wrote:
Well this put an interesting though into my head ... And shows, at least a little, the thought process of the balance they put into the index (we can't really fairly do these comparisons without our own codex and that was considered in the op ... But I know why we do them) 45 points of wyches is roughly equal to 45 points of cultists (and possibly 45 points of any other unit that can be melee specialized) and that's looking at the rules, gear, and (hear me out) aura's each unit has available to them. Rerolling 1's from the succubus on wyches is basically "reroll misses", yes I know not for the first two turns, or if the wyches take the +1 ws drug. The Hydra gauntlets give reroll wounds (I know it isn't the entire squad but it is one model at AP -1) so looking at it like that ... They are close to equal (as close as they wanted to make the at least)

Well, I am going to have to disagree. I mean I see where you're coming from, but there are several factors that you are simply not considering.

First and least consequential is that the Cultist squad is cheaper. 5 points net is practically nothing, but it isn't entirely nothing.

Second, the auras are nowhere near equal. Reroll failed hits for a unit that already hits on 2+ is not that big a deal, but reroll failed hits on a unit that has twice as many attacks but only hits on 4+ is a much bigger thing.

Assuming minimum sized squads, the rerolls net the Wyches maybe 1-2 extra hits but net the Cultists an average of 5 extra hits.

The reroll wounds aura vs the Hydra gauntlet is also a big difference. A 5 man squad gets one set of gauntlets, giving them 2 out of 11 attacks that can reroll. The aura gives all of the attacks rerolls, giving 10-11 average hits reroll failed wounds.


When expanded to a macro level things get worse. Let us say we have a 30 man squad of cultists of the World Eaters (120 points) with both auras nearby, against a 20 man squad of Wyches with 3 hydra gauntlets and attack drugs (192 points) with a succubus nearby. She and the exalted champion are dueling or something.

On the charge the cultists are putting out 91 attacks, hitting on 4's rerolling failed for something in the area of 70 hits, rerolling failed wounds.

On the charge the Wyches are putting out 61 attacks, hitting with something near 60 of them. 9 of those reroll failed wounds.

let us have both squads charge a group of conscripts, the iconic horde unit.

Wyches are dealing an average of around 31 wounds before saves.

Cultists are dealing an average of around around 51 wounds before saves.

if we drop the faction bonus for world eaters then things even out a bit, as the cultists are only getting 61 attacks, hitting with 45-46 of them, and wounding with around 30-31 of them before saves.

So the cultist squad, once again cutting the best rule for them in the interest of fairness, is doing the same average damage against a soft target as a wych squad 150% their cost. And this is without giving the cultists any ACTIVE buffs like psychic powers or Stratagems, this is just from being in proximity to the right people.

Saying the buffs are in any way equal is a bit rich.

Third and final point: Cultists are not a hyper specialized melee squad. They are cannon fodder who can be outfitted for melee or ranged. I keep getting told that our trueborn are paying for flexible loadouts, so having Cultists be better in melee than Wyches of comparable points is terrible.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Mon Jan 01 2018, 01:03

I love cultist, i had 100 of them, just sold them tho. I needed to tone down my Armies (I have 6...) so i sold my Chaos off.

Cultist are better than Wyches in everyway. i would NEVER take 200pts of Wyches, but i will in Cultist, especially with powers and stratagems lol.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Tue Jan 02 2018, 12:03

Word from my chaos playing friend. He said that not only would he not touch Wyches with a 10 foot poll but he also considered Hydra gauntlets to be a bad joke. Since he is a follower of Khorne I generally consider his opinions on matters melee to be pretty airtight.

To clarify, he looked at the stats for Hydra gauntlets, then pointed out the stats for Chainaxes, then laughed.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Tue Jan 02 2018, 12:24

@FuelDrop wrote:
To clarify, he looked at the stats for Hydra gauntlets, then pointed out the stats for Chainaxes, then laughed.

He's got a point!

Hydra Gauntlets are 4 pts, S3, AP-1, D1, +1A, re-roll wounds
Chainaxes are 1 pt, S6, AP-1, D1

So for 13 points you get a T3, 6+ model which does 0.56 wounds to a MEQ opponent vs 17 points for a T4, 3+ model which does 1.78 wounds vs MEQ (I've assumed +1A for the Wyches and World Eaters for the Berzerkers).

That's 0.04 wounds per point vs 0.10

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Tue Jan 02 2018, 14:10

And again, the Beserkers can be rerolling failed hits, rerolling failed wounds. Because they have better leaders.

World Eaters, who say only Blood for the Blood god, Let the galaxy burn, and Kill Maim Burn, have better leaders than us. Who are also better combatants.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Tue Jan 02 2018, 21:27

The no escape rule... oh god, we thought it was a BENEFIT for the wyches, when in fact it is a PENALTY for them.

If it worked on vehicles, then ok, it would be a great rule. Tying up enemy tanks and skimmers would make wyches useful.

Instead, the no escape only works on infantry, and why on gods green earth would we want wyches tied up in combat when they get shot in the face with pistols and get no save for it?
You think after a few combats the wyches would be like "hey, when i tie you up, you shoot me in the melon. Maybe it would be better to let you go and I move onto something more squishy and has less pistols".
Just sayin.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Tue Jan 02 2018, 21:30

Berserkers and genestealers got buffed really well in 8th. Which is decent for then since both units didn't see much use in previous editions.

Wyches have needed a buff since they no longer can pack a ton of haywire grenades.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Tue Jan 02 2018, 21:53

"Most improved unit"

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Tue Jan 02 2018, 21:56

@FuelDrop wrote:
"Most improved unit"
LOL thats right! I forgot that!

And that, ladies and gentlemen, says it all.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Tue Jan 02 2018, 22:16

@lament.config wrote:
Berserkers and genestealers got buffed really well in 8th. Which is decent for then since both units didn't see much use in previous editions.

Wyches have needed a buff since they no longer can pack a ton of haywire grenades.

The problem with this statement is that they always were good, just not an auto take.

Gensetealers always been better than Wyches ever since they came out. Berserkers always been the boogie man of melee from CSM as well.

6/7th made them not viable but CSM and Nids codex were 5th ed based and didnt get a 6/7th update.

Wyches and DE also got the same treatment, sadly we got it worst (along with GK's) we had many things removed and nades nerfed so wyches lost what they were even good at and never got them back.

Wyches lost so much... DE in general lost so much Sad


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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Tue Jan 02 2018, 22:35

Compare and contrast: Bloodbride with Hydra Gauntlets vs Khorne Beserker with chainaxe.

Both cost the same points. The Khorn Beserker is SO much better.

But for kicks, compare and contrast two melee troops choices: The Wych... Vs the Humble Ork boy. Which would you rather field?

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Wed Jan 03 2018, 00:04

Yeah but GW thinks No Escape is good so it cost 3pts per model.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Wed Jan 03 2018, 00:52

No escape is so awesome, it means that regardless of other factors Wyches are underpriced.

Except not.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Wed Jan 03 2018, 00:55

Higher movement, No Escape, higher leadership, a 4++ save in close combat.

It's all nice but none of it makes the Wyches better at killing things in combat and certainly doesn't justify them costing 50% more than an Ork Boy.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Wed Jan 03 2018, 01:09

And Orks have options that let them bypass most of that.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs cultists.   Wed Jan 03 2018, 05:56

Someone show GW how bad they are compare to the other units.

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