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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Fri Dec 29 2017, 18:28

@Burnage wrote:
I'd rather have another unit of Scourges than Trueborn, personally. 20 more points in exchange for a 4+/6++ save, 14" move and not needing to spend a CP to deep strike? Sounds like more than a fair trade.

We don't have enough command points to play around with to spend them on what is essentially nothing but a distraction tactic.

Don't forget the possibility to skip entirely blasters and go full DL, doubling your range and damage output for a meager 20 extra points. Yep, Scourges are the real thing.

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Fri Dec 29 2017, 18:47

@Burnage wrote:
I'd rather have another unit of Scourges than Trueborn, personally. 20 more points in exchange for a 4+/6++ save, 14" move and not needing to spend a CP to deep strike? Sounds like more than a fair trade.

We don't have enough command points to play around with to spend them on what is essentially nothing but a distraction tactic.


What? We don't have any stratagem, why I have to keep those CP?

Anyway, I play already 2x5 Scourges with dark lances, and after I add blasterborns.



Why in this community, a choice must be in the place of another one? Scourge vs Ravagers, Blasterborns vs Scourges? Of course I'm saying to add those together, never to trade one for another.
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Fri Dec 29 2017, 18:55

We have the BRB stratagems, and re-rolls are powerful. Using the Webway portal is making the decision that you're not going to be re-rolling a failed hit or save.

Comparing units that do similar things is always going to happen, because you can always just take more of one unit if it's clearly better. In the case of Scourges vs Ravagers, there are clear pros and cons to each and neither is necessarily outright stronger than the other, so taking a mix of them is a good idea.

Compare Scourges (or Ravagers) to Trueborn, though, and it looks much less even.
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Fri Dec 29 2017, 19:09

@Burnage wrote:
We have the BRB stratagems, and re-rolls are powerful. Using the Webway portal is making the decision that you're not going to be re-rolling a failed hit or save.

Comparing units that do similar things is always going to happen, because you can always just take more of one unit if it's clearly better. In the case of Scourges vs Ravagers, there are clear pros and cons to each and neither is necessarily outright stronger than the other, so taking a mix of them is a good idea.

Compare Scourges (or Ravagers) to Trueborn, though, and it looks much less even.


You can do the Portal and reroll as well.

About Scourges and Trueborn, no it's not. The big thing is that you don't need to play around the Portal. You can, but you must not. In my last game I was already playing 2 Ravagers, 2 Scourges, and 3x5 Trueborn, with Mandrakes etc. I was playing the 6 elites detatchment, can't remember the name.
Well, few games ago I was against a Tyr. His shooting power wasn't too much, so my aggressive list had to play waiting him. My Trueborn were in their Venoms and all was fine.
But in the last game I was against a GK. In that game, my Blasterborn Venoms would have been blowed up in turn 1, struggling then to get my enemy in range of the blasters.

And that's where the WWP really shine....adapt.

I use it to DS 2 of them, togheter with 2x5 Scourges, changing them from "dead footslogger bodies" to "2 more alphastrike units". And it works!

That's a typo scenario where you would like to DS some Trueborns.




Anyway, no, it's not normal to compare two units without considering all the scenarios for them.


But most of all, I was in response to "deepstriking 5 Wytches for veichles".
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Sat Dec 30 2017, 17:12

@Cerve wrote:
You can do the Portal and reroll as well.

Well... no, not with the same Command Points, which is my issue. Is deep-striking two units or re-rolling three dice more valuable? With the units and limited number of CP that we have to work with, I would suggest that the three re-rolls are vastly more valuable. If we had ways to generate more CP or units which received greater benefit from being given the ability to pop up 9 inches away from the enemy, then it would be a tougher decision, but right now WWP seems like a trap option to me.

@Cerve wrote:
Anyway, no, it's not normal to compare two units without considering all the scenarios for them.

So here's my question; what scenarios are there in which Trueborn are better than Scourges? I can easily think of two off the top of my head; one in which you don't have the additional 15 points to spare for the Scourges, or you don't have detachment slots available for them. A third might arguably be "you really want to put something in a Venom". All of which are relatively limited scenarios and leave Scourges as the preferable option in my mind.

Trueborn also do better in close combat, admittedly, but if your special weapons units are in close combat then something has probably gone horribly wrong.

@Cerve wrote:
But most of all, I was in response to "deepstriking 5 Wytches for veichles".

Right, which gets to the crux of the problem that I have.

Should you Webway Wyches to take out vehicles? No, Blasterborn are better at it.
Should you Webway Blasterborn to take out vehicles? Probably not, Scourges are better at it (and don't need to use the Webway to do it).
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Sat Dec 30 2017, 18:18

However, the first suggestion was about a squad of 5 wyches tying down tanks, not destroying them. It may be a rather chancy strategy, but at least it's very cheap to execute (45pts). And it actually can, if you succeed the first charge, tie down a tank for the entire game.

Blasterborn cost more than double that, and cannot serve the same purpose (neither can they, IMO, destroy anything serious).

So this is a bit like comparing apples to motorcycles. The thread was about a dirtcheap unit aiming to invalidate a tank, not an elite unit aiming to destroy it.

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Sat Dec 30 2017, 19:08

I just saw this thread... I've been talking on Eldar groups and Dakka about this a little bit.

This is something i am going to try, for 45pts and 1CP it seems highly worth it.




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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Sat Dec 30 2017, 19:36

@Mppqlmd wrote:
However, the first suggestion was about a squad of 5 wyches tying down tanks, not destroying them. It may be a rather chancy strategy, but at least it's very cheap to execute (45pts). And it actually can, if you succeed the first charge, tie down a tank for the entire game.

Blasterborn cost more than double that, and cannot serve the same purpose (neither can they, IMO, destroy anything serious).

So this is a bit like comparing apples to motorcycles. The thread was about a dirtcheap unit aiming to invalidate a tank, not an elite unit aiming to destroy it.

This is a fair point, but since No Escape doesn't work on anything but Infantry perhaps an even cheaper unit would be a better alternative to Wyches. Two Khymerae, maybe?
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Sat Dec 30 2017, 20:47

@Burnage wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
However, the first suggestion was about a squad of 5 wyches tying down tanks, not destroying them. It may be a rather chancy strategy, but at least it's very cheap to execute (45pts). And it actually can, if you succeed the first charge, tie down a tank for the entire game.

Blasterborn cost more than double that, and cannot serve the same purpose (neither can they, IMO, destroy anything serious).

So this is a bit like comparing apples to motorcycles. The thread was about a dirtcheap unit aiming to invalidate a tank, not an elite unit aiming to destroy it.

This is a fair point, but since No Escape doesn't work on anything but Infantry perhaps an even cheaper unit would be a better alternative to Wyches. Two Khymerae, maybe?

You dont care about no escape if its a tank, its a full turn wasted of shooting.
Also beasts dont have PFP so no re-roll charges on turn 2.
And Wyches have a 4++ in melee so if you HAD to charge a unit other than tanks, at least you can live through a round of melee (hopefully).

With good placement, pile in and consolidate and defendant on terrain and other units they might not be able to fall back anyways.

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Sat Dec 30 2017, 21:07

Quote :
This is a fair point, but since No Escape doesn't work on anything but Infantry perhaps an even cheaper unit would be a better alternative to Wyches. Two Khymerae, maybe?

Khymeras can't use the WWP stratagem, i think. They are not infantry, right ?

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Sat Dec 30 2017, 21:20

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
This is a fair point, but since No Escape doesn't work on anything but Infantry perhaps an even cheaper unit would be a better alternative to Wyches. Two Khymerae, maybe?

Khymeras can't use the WWP stratagem, i think. They are not infantry, right ?

It says Beasts, Bikes, Infantry.


To add to this, after looking at this stratagy i notice and literally never notice before, but Wyches can also go in units of 20!

20! lol DS 20 Wyches and look at their face when you multi-charge 3 things

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Sun Dec 31 2017, 02:48

How many of those 20 wyches are gonna survive overwatch from 3 different targets though?
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Sun Dec 31 2017, 02:48

Double post
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Sun Dec 31 2017, 02:51

@Archon_91 wrote:
How many of those 20 wyches are gonna survive overwatch from 3 different targets though?

Out of LoS or if they are AT vehicles who cares about 10 shots so 1 will die?

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Sun Dec 31 2017, 14:40

I think the best use for the WWP is to bring in max squads. My last game (first and only playing DE in 8th, so take my advice accordingly) i dropped both a dog blob and a grot blob on a flank of the enemy. Dogs got obliterated after failing the charge (with a CP re roll), but the grots survived failing the charge ( and a turn off return fire) and got to make their points back.

Whatever you drop, expect it to fail its charge and die. 20 wyches are too expensive to be left hanging in the wind. 10 on the other hand...
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Thu Jan 04 2018, 05:05

I'd like to give ten wytches a shot. Not too expensive, can at least handle or tie up some weaker targets and with pfp charge reroll bringing them in on turn two gives them a better shot of successfully making a charge.

Ideally I'd like to use the WWP to bring in a solid alpha strike shooting unit, but without the deadly stratagems some armies have like +1 to wound, rerolls, shoot twice etc I just don't see it being possible for any of our infantry units to have the alpha strike hitpower just yet.

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Thu Jan 04 2018, 14:27

@fisheyes wrote:
I think the best use for the WWP is to bring in max squads. My last game (first and only playing DE in 8th, so take my advice accordingly) i dropped both a dog blob and a grot blob on a flank of the enemy. Dogs got obliterated after failing the charge (with a CP re roll), but the grots survived failing the charge ( and a turn off return fire) and got to make their points back.

Whatever you drop, expect it to fail its charge and die. 20 wyches are too expensive to be left hanging in the wind. 10 on the other hand...

This has been my experience and attitude as well. I found grots to be very reliable despite not being the blender masters they used to be. With some good positioning you can drop them near a Haemnculus for T6.

I wonder, has anybody tried Wyches with Hypex dropping out of a wwp?

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Thu Jan 04 2018, 17:02

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
I wonder, has anybody tried Wyches with Hypex dropping out of a wwp?

Hypex doesn't apply to charge moves, it just modifies the unit's Move Stat by +2".

If it did it would be incredibly great, so of course it doesn't. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Thu Jan 04 2018, 21:27

To be fair only usage for webway portal i found is droping 2 homeoculus on top of psyker army to punch them with crucible (i called it HomoBomb - and it's hilarious against GK or Daemons when opponent don't expect that Wink). I tried Hellions, reavers (god they are terrible) and wyches. Most of the time they don't achive anything so what the point ?


Last edited by Perturabo on Thu Jan 04 2018, 22:50; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Thu Jan 04 2018, 21:41

@fisheyes wrote:
I think the best use for the WWP is to bring in max squads.  My last game (first and only playing DE in 8th, so take my advice accordingly) i dropped both a dog blob and a grot blob on a flank of the enemy.  Dogs got obliterated after failing the charge (with a CP re roll), but the grots survived failing the charge ( and a turn off return fire) and got to make their points back.

Whatever you drop, expect it to fail its charge and die. 20 wyches are too expensive to be left hanging in the wind.  10 on the other hand...


How many Grots makes up a 'blob'?

Theyre just so expensive....in game and in real world dollars!
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Thu Jan 04 2018, 22:18

@Toanyonebutyou wrote:
@fisheyes wrote:
I think the best use for the WWP is to bring in max squads.  My last game (first and only playing DE in 8th, so take my advice accordingly) i dropped both a dog blob and a grot blob on a flank of the enemy.  Dogs got obliterated after failing the charge (with a CP re roll), but the grots survived failing the charge ( and a turn off return fire) and got to make their points back.

Whatever you drop, expect it to fail its charge and die. 20 wyches are too expensive to be left hanging in the wind.  10 on the other hand...


How many Grots makes up a 'blob'?

Theyre just so expensive....in game and in real world dollars!

Use Ogres from AoF, 40% for 6, they are plastic and not mono-posed
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Ogors

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Fri Jan 05 2018, 15:44

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Toanyonebutyou wrote:
@fisheyes wrote:
I think the best use for the WWP is to bring in max squads.  My last game (first and only playing DE in 8th, so take my advice accordingly) i dropped both a dog blob and a grot blob on a flank of the enemy.  Dogs got obliterated after failing the charge (with a CP re roll), but the grots survived failing the charge ( and a turn off return fire) and got to make their points back.

Whatever you drop, expect it to fail its charge and die. 20 wyches are too expensive to be left hanging in the wind.  10 on the other hand...


How many Grots makes up a 'blob'?

Theyre just so expensive....in game and in real world dollars!

Use Ogres from AoF, 40% for 6, they are plastic and not mono-posed

Right now im about to start converting some crypt fiends/varghasts. Not as cost effective as the ogres but I like the look.

Now if they were only cheaper in game!
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Fri Jan 05 2018, 19:51

I did Ogres b.c i wanted to play 20+ of them lol.

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Mon Jan 15 2018, 07:21

This weekend I had a game where I tried out 10 webway wyches, dropping on turn 2. Here's the results:

- My opponent was playing Ad-Mech, who have a stratagem that lets an infantry unit immediately shoot a deep-striking unit that appears within 12" at -1 to hit. This was a massive pain in the ass, since wyches can't stand up to any fire at all, so I couldn't use the intended strategy of charging and locking multiple infantry units.
- Instead, they charged a pair of heavy walker-tanks, and the tech priest that was babysitting them. They stopped the tanks firing for a turn, and managed to scratch off a wound.
- Unfortunately, the tech priest then succeeded the No Escape roll-off (even after I CP-rerolled), and the wyches got obliterated by return fire.

End effect: 2 CPs (1 for webway, 1 for the reroll) and 100pts of troops down the drain, for a turn of not-firing from a pair of tanks.

I think that if they could have got into contact with more than 1 infantry unit, and forced multiple No Escape rolls, they would have performed reasonably as a disruption. But if your opponent has an Interception-type stratagem (I know Space Marines do, maybe Craftworld Eldar too?) then just leave them at home, cause they're very easy to put in a useless position.

I also made a mistake in their drug selection: I chose my default of +1A, but since they were there mostly just to tie things down I should probably have gone for +1 T instead.
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Mon Jan 15 2018, 08:36

CWE does but you need to have a character near them.... Meaning a Warlock or Spiritseer nest to your Dark Reapers lol, CWE is stronger, but it has that stipulation (tho its not really a stipulation).

Yeah, i dont think Wyches are worth it in any way, shape, or form, currently.

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