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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Webway Wyches   Wed Dec 27 2017, 23:01

So would a min squad of 5 lycheesdamn autocorrect every time deep-struck in to the backfield be viable at tying up lone enemy tanks? i guess the web way CP could be more useful elsewhere, but for 40 points and 1 CP tying a tank up for 1-2-3 turns seems pretty OK. You could even multi-charge a parking lot for maximum fun.

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Wed Dec 27 2017, 23:13

@wormfromhell wrote:
So would a min squad of 5 lycheesdamn autocorrect every time deep-struck in to the backfield be viable at tying up lone enemy tanks? i guess the web way CP could be more useful elsewhere, but for 40 points and 1 CP tying a tank up for 1-2-3 turns seems pretty OK. You could even multi-charge a parking lot for maximum fun.

Use Mandrakes. No CP cost, and the -1 to hit means that most tanks are unable to hurt them in combat at all. They also survive overwatch better. Yes you lose out on no retreat, but that rule is so craptasticly unreliable that building a strategy around it is already doomed to failure.
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Wed Dec 27 2017, 23:29

@FuelDrop wrote:
@wormfromhell wrote:
So would a min squad of 5 lycheesdamn autocorrect every time deep-struck in to the backfield be viable at tying up lone enemy tanks? i guess the web way CP could be more useful elsewhere, but for 40 points and 1 CP tying a tank up for 1-2-3 turns seems pretty OK. You could even multi-charge a parking lot for maximum fun.

Use Mandrakes. No CP cost, and the -1 to hit means that most tanks are unable to hurt them in combat at all. They also survive overwatch better. Yes you lose out on no retreat, but that rule is so craptasticly unreliable that building a strategy around it is already doomed to failure.

oh yeah didn't think about it like that wow

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Wed Dec 27 2017, 23:37

No retreat only works against infantry anyway, so if your role is tying up tanks, it's not very useful.

But Mandrakes are twice as expensive per wound, so they make a very expensive tarpit.

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Thu Dec 28 2017, 11:28

Or just Deepstrike 5 Trueborn w/4 Blasters.
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Thu Dec 28 2017, 12:06

@Cerve wrote:
Or just Deepstrike 5 Trueborn w/4 Blasters.

They get one shooting phase, and they need to ALL hit, wound, and roll 3 on the damager oll to kill something (most tanks have at least 12 wounds).

Then they all die immediatly to the first twinlinked heavy bolter that looks funny at them.

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Thu Dec 28 2017, 12:48

Here's the problem: Lack of Alpha Strike and Force Multipliers.

If we deep strike a large, relatively cheap unit like 20 warriors, the damage they can inflict against priority targets is pretty low. Sure it's a lot of poison, but anything valuable will be bubble wrapped or in a transport. Even then, what is 20 warriors going to do to, say, a space marine captain in artificer armour? Or even a Carnifex? Remember that these are warriors outside of a raider we're talking about here, if an army cannot wipe them out in one turn then they have serious problems (or are DE themselves and lack horde killing Razz)

So it's a lot of investment that's probably not going to make turn 2, and is probably not going to do too much outside of its lances and blasters.

Let's cut out the middle man and just field a 5 man squad of Trueborn with 2 lance 2 blaster then? Get rid of all the poisoned shots sure, but that is just wasted points for an alpha strike unit! The problem we instantly run into is this: we have no way to make sure this works. You're putting a not inconsiderable investment (hardly all in for most games, but enough to be noticable on your balance sheet) into an all or nothing attack, and you have no way to make sure it works.

Compare a Chaos unit, Obliterators with Mark of Slaanesh. They can deep strike in and then spend some CP to shoot twice each, giving a 3 man squad a rather healthy 24 shots that are potentially blaster tier. Not bad for 200 points or so of alpha strike. But it gets better because despite getting around 5 times as many shots as our trueborn for twice the price, they also have a net 9 wounds, protected by T4 2+ 5++, maybe more depending on legion. AND they can deep strike a terminator or jetpack lord or sorcerer nearby to give them +1 to hit and/or reroll 1's, practically guaranteeing a good shooting phase!

Even without any force multipliers for that alpha strike beyond the CP, it should be obvious that we are severely outclassed as far as deepstriking firepower is concerned. This pattern repeats with Drop Pods, Crisis Suits, Grey Knights, Primerus crazy people...

We cannot deep strike enough stuff to make it worthwhile for a pincer movement, and we cannot deep strike enough reliable firepower to work as priority target elimination. Our options lack the durability for being a sustained threat and lose their maneuverability because they are without their transports. Craftworlders, with their Battle Focus, can remain mobile without transports. for practical reasons, Dark Eldar cannot. And Dark Eldar without mobility die like bugs on a windshield.


For Webway Portal to be at all viable as a stratagem, we need at least a few of the following:
> Some way to survive multiple turns outside of transports.
> Assault Infantry that is worth assaulting with.
> Some way to deep strike En Mass, allowing us to defeat the enemy through death by a thousand cuts.
> The ability to bring our vehicles along for the ride.
> An option to make the alpha strike shooting reliable.
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Thu Dec 28 2017, 13:57

@FuelDrop wrote:

Compare a Chaos unit, Obliterators with Mark of Slaanesh. They can deep strike in and then spend some CP to shoot twice each, giving a 3 man squad a rather healthy 24 shots that are potentially blaster tier. Not bad for 200 points or so of alpha strike. But it gets better because despite getting around 5 times as many shots as our trueborn for twice the price, they also have a net 9 wounds, protected by T4 2+ 5++, maybe more depending on legion. AND they can deep strike a terminator or jetpack lord or sorcerer nearby to give them +1 to hit and/or reroll 1's, practically guaranteeing a good shooting phase!

seriously??? 200 points???

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Thu Dec 28 2017, 15:45

@wormfromhell wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:

Compare a Chaos unit, Obliterators with Mark of Slaanesh. They can deep strike in and then spend some CP to shoot twice each, giving a 3 man squad a rather healthy 24 shots that are potentially blaster tier. Not bad for 200 points or so of alpha strike. But it gets better because despite getting around 5 times as many shots as our trueborn for twice the price, they also have a net 9 wounds, protected by T4 2+ 5++, maybe more depending on legion. AND they can deep strike a terminator or jetpack lord or sorcerer nearby to give them +1 to hit and/or reroll 1's, practically guaranteeing a good shooting phase!

seriously??? 200 points???

Codex armies are so much cheaper than us it's unbelievable. It's why everyone was expecting a ton of point reductions in Chapter Approved, and why we were all let down when only the Court got tweaked.
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Thu Dec 28 2017, 19:10

I've had some fun recently with 3 Fire Prisms. 465pts, and if you spend 1 CP you have either :

- 6 S12 AP -5 D6 shots
- 6D3 S9 AP -4 D3 shots
- 6D6 S6 AP-3 D1 shots

ALL REROLLING HIT AND WOUND. And only one needs to have vision on target and be in range.


Needless to say I was destroying one target per turn. They killed more than 1000pts in the course of the game.


So yeah. Codex factions are silly.

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Thu Dec 28 2017, 20:01

The more I see of the codex's the more I feel even some of our wildest demands that didn't make it into our letter to gw were pretty tame ...
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Thu Dec 28 2017, 23:14

@Archon_91 wrote:
The more I see of the codex's the more I feel even some of our wildest demands that didn't make it into our letter to gw were pretty tame ...

Yup.

GW receives our letter...

GW "rules developer" 1 - Hmm, These buffs are nothing compared what we hand out like candy to every codex so far.

GW "rules developer" 2 - Yeah, Drew Carey must be totally OP if this is all their fans want for them.

GW "rules developer" 1 - Truth. Back of the pile they go.

GW "rules developer" 2 - Ill make a note to nerf them hard too when we finally get around to them.

Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Thu Dec 28 2017, 23:15

@Mppqlmd wrote:
I've had some fun recently with 3 Fire Prisms. 465pts, and if you spend 1 CP you have either :

- 6 S12 AP -5 D6 shots
- 6D3 S9 AP -4 D3 shots
- 6D6 S6 AP-3 D1 shots

ALL REROLLING HIT AND WOUND. And only one needs to have vision on target and be in range.


Needless to say I was destroying one target per turn. They killed more than 1000pts in the course of the game.


So yeah. Codex factions are silly.

or for us 3 ravagers with 9 s8 -4 D6. no rerolls, options, stratagems ect.....

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Fri Dec 29 2017, 10:57

@Painjunky wrote:
@Archon_91 wrote:
The more I see of the codex's the more I feel even some of our wildest demands that didn't make it into our letter to gw were pretty tame ...

Yup.

GW receives our letter...

GW "rules developer" 1 - Hmm, These buffs are nothing compared what we hand out like candy to every codex so far.

GW "rules developer" 2 - Yeah, Drew Carey must be totally OP if this is all their fans want for them.

GW "rules developer" 1 - Truth. Back of the pile they go.

GW "rules developer" 2 - Ill make a note to nerf them hard too when we finally get around to them.

Rolling Eyes

Oh, so someone actually expected them to give us the same treatment everyone else received ? Because that's totally how things work for Dark Eldar Rolling Eyes

But if you want to evacuate your frustration by charging the responsability of a tradition of bad codex to the group of people that actually did an effort to make things better... sure, i guess. Why not.

Rolling Eyes


On the same logic though : "Oh, we haven't received any news from the Tyrannids player. They must be very happy with their index. Let's give them the exact same in the codex".
Because Games Workshop works like a goddam pizza delivery service.

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Fri Dec 29 2017, 12:38

"I'm sorry, the who? Dark Eldar? Oh, you mean the Ynnari! Yeah, we're doing great work with them! Everyone loves them so much we actually had to nerf them to make it fair!"
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Fri Dec 29 2017, 13:20

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@Painjunky wrote:
@Archon_91 wrote:
The more I see of the codex's the more I feel even some of our wildest demands that didn't make it into our letter to gw were pretty tame ...

Yup.

GW receives our letter...

GW "rules developer" 1 - Hmm, These buffs are nothing compared what we hand out like candy to every codex so far.

GW "rules developer" 2 - Yeah, Drew Carey must be totally OP if this is all their fans want for them.

GW "rules developer" 1 - Truth. Back of the pile they go.

GW "rules developer" 2 - Ill make a note to nerf them hard too when we finally get around to them.

Rolling Eyes

Oh, so someone actually expected them to give us the same treatment everyone else received ? Because that's totally how things work for Dark Eldar Rolling Eyes

But if you want to evacuate your frustration by charging the responsability of a tradition of bad codex to the group of people that actually did an effort to make things better... sure, i guess. Why not.

Rolling Eyes


On the same logic though : "Oh, we haven't received any news from the Tyrannids player. They must be very happy with their index. Let's give them the exact same in the codex".
Because Games Workshop works like a goddam pizza delivery service.

Take heart. Tyranids are my main army and the codex is just worlds better than the index. It's like our wishes finally came true. Then again we were used to only having a few units playable in the entire codex for a few editions (much like DE). Most codexes have been good and I think DE will be as well.

On the other hand, Guard players have been relentlessly hammered since the index when they were great. Conscripts now need a 4+ to follow orders. Then codex FAQ and Commissars make your army arguably worse. Then Chapter Approved and conscripts now cost as much as normal guardsman. I feel sorry for those players.
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Fri Dec 29 2017, 15:06

Quote :
Take heart. Tyranids are my main army and the codex is just worlds better than the index. It's like our wishes finally came true.

Well yeah, getting from bottom tier to top meta is quite a boon, isn't it Smile

Quote :

On the other hand, Guard players have been relentlessly hammered since the index when they were great.

Leman Russes though Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Fri Dec 29 2017, 15:18

Yeah ... Conscripts needed a change but GW has a habit of going way overboard with changes and nerfs ... The 4+ on orders was fine (it's conscripts ... They aren't exactly the most loyal or disciplined) and the commissar change is kinda meh ... Honestly after they gave the Eldar and someone else basically and army wide rule that did what a commissar does (only lose one model in the morale phase) I don't see why they would have had to change it outside of people complaining that the massive amount of models that they can field can really only be dealt with by having a chance to cause more then one casualty in the morale phase ...
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Fri Dec 29 2017, 15:33

Conscripts and Commissars got hammered, but aren't the Guard as a whole still incredibly strong with a huge variety of fluffy options in their Codex?
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Fri Dec 29 2017, 15:58

@Burnage wrote:
Conscripts and Commissars got hammered, but aren't the Guard as a whole still incredibly strong with a huge variety of fluffy options in their Codex?

Leman Russes Smile

They were the first to receive the "double shot if not moving more than 50%", and considering the guns they have access to (and the ridiculous pricing), it's VERY effective.

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Fri Dec 29 2017, 17:33

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Or just Deepstrike 5 Trueborn w/4 Blasters.

They get one shooting phase, and they need to ALL hit, wound, and roll 3 on the damager oll to kill something (most tanks have at least 12 wounds).

Then they all die immediatly to the first twinlinked heavy bolter that looks funny at them.


So what?
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Fri Dec 29 2017, 17:44

So it isn't exactly a good way to spend points and CPs.

Blasterborn are already not optimal in a vehicle, but footslogging them ? Yikes

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Fri Dec 29 2017, 17:48

@Archon_91 wrote:
The more I see of the codex's the more I feel even some of our wildest demands that didn't make it into our letter to gw were pretty tame ...

I still can't believe that letter was sent. Asking GW to fix an army is the wargaming equivalent of suicide by cop.

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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Fri Dec 29 2017, 18:14

@Mppqlmd wrote:
So it isn't exactly a good way to spend points and CPs.

Blasterborn are already not optimal in a vehicle, but footslogging them ? Yikes



You don't care about it, you care about the alpha strike. We have literally no one unit that will not blow up watching them. Our DS are always in a way of disturb and alpha one (Scourges for example).
Trueborn becomes your second Scourges! They are not bad at all, they are actually a pretty good choice. You say that they'll die. I say that if you're shooting them down, I'm fine. Normally, I have 2x5 Scourges, 2-3 Ravagers, maybe I've DS other units, or a blob of Grots etc. Those Trueborn will shoot once in my plan, and they are the least choice that I wanna save in my entire list so actually I HOPE you will shoot them down!
Marines need to disembark, or you're shooting with a Razorback: I'm fine with both.
Pagk are shooting them with 5 of them with a Stormbolter: I'm pretty fine.
Etc. You can find out that any attention your opponent will bring to them will be fine for you.

I like them. DE still play MSU even with the Portal, which is basically "give the Scourges wings to any infantry unit".

Or you're playing 8+ Grots which is fine. Or 20 Kabalites which still fine, but not so hard to kill them (in a medium range imho).


I tried them, and I like the idea of turning out some Blasterborn into scourges.
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PostSubject: Re: Webway Wyches   Fri Dec 29 2017, 18:23

I'd rather have another unit of Scourges than Trueborn, personally. 20 more points in exchange for a 4+/6++ save, 14" move and not needing to spend a CP to deep strike? Sounds like more than a fair trade.

We don't have enough command points to play around with to spend them on what is essentially nothing but a distraction tactic.
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