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FuelDrop
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: On the charge   Sat Dec 23 2017, 22:31

So, I've been having some thoughts.

Both Covens and Cults are focused very heavily on melee, but both need to maintain their own identities within that, while still remaining different from our independent melee units, the Incubi and the Mandrakes.

So, here is what I am thinking:

Cult units need to be fast, and put out a lot of attacks. I think that having them focus on being shock troops, getting benefits on the charge such as boosted strength or a second fight phase or inflicting morale penalties. My thoughts:

Wyches/Bloodbrides: +1 to wound on the charge. Make that initial strike count.

Hellions: Double Casualties for morale purposes on the turn they charge.

Reavers: Double Attacks on the turn they charge. Hit and Run.

Additionally, all Cult units should be able to Charge after Advancing.


Covens on the other hand should be endurance fighters. Charge or be charged, they can take the hit and dish out pain in kind.

Wracks: These guys are the assistants to Haemonculi. They should get some kind of "Surgical Precision" rule that allows them to deal +1 wound on a to wound roll of 6 vs non-vehicles. They should also be 2 wounds stock.

Grotesques: These guys should be monsters in combat. They need at least 4-5 wounds each, and a special rule that gives +1 attack when outnumbered.

Pain Engines: These guys need to be our hard counter to hordes. Give them +1 attack for every two models within 2 inches and watch them tear through large units like a knife through butter.


Now for our independents:

Mandrakes: These guys are supposed to be our assassins, but they lack any rules that really help them do that beyond deep striking. They need to be able to single out characters with their shooting, or deal multiple/mortal wounds to characters in CC.

Incubi: These guys are already pretty damn awesome, but to put them on par with aspect warriors they need at least something. I vote that they get +1 attack when outnumbered.


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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Sat Dec 23 2017, 23:30

Great thread ! Here are my reactions :

Quote :
Additionally, all Cult units should be able to Charge after Advancing.

+999. Totally agreed.

Quote :
Wyches/Bloodbrides: +1 to wound on the charge. Make that initial strike count.

Why not Smile

Quote :

Hellions: Double Casualties for morale purposes on the turn they charge.

Very rich and VERY interesting idea. I truly love it.
Quote :

Reavers: Double Attacks on the turn they charge. Hit and Run.

I don't really think so. I'd rather see their damage output come from Bladevanes, and i really loves how they work in 7th edition. Here is my take for Bladevane : "For each model that ends within 1" of an enemy unit after a charge move, roll 1d6. On a 5+, the enemy unit suffers a mortal wound. Roll 3 dice for Grav talons".

Quote :
They should also be 2 wounds stock.

YES ! And they should have a "Bodyguard" rule : can take wounds from nearby Haemy, and gets rerolls when the haemy is here.

Quote :
They should get some kind of "Surgical Precision" rule that allows them to deal +1 wound on a to wound roll of 6 vs non-vehicles.

They could go further and give them MW on a 6 to roll.

Quote :
Grotesques: These guys should be monsters in combat. They need at least 4-5 wounds each, and a special rule that gives +1 attack when outnumbered.

IMO these should be the Coven Anti-horde. They could get a special rule reducing the efficiency of Multi-damage weapons "Born to suffer : their invulnerable save goes to 3+ for weapons that deal more than 2 damage". They should get a form of rampage rule.

Quote :
Pain Engines: These guys need to be our hard counter to hordes. Give them +1 attack for every two models within 2 inches and watch them tear through large units like a knife through butter.

Disagreed, the Chronos should stay a support unit, and the Talos should have the choice between Macro scalpel (8 attacks, AP-3 D2) for elite infantry, Ichor Injector for Big Game Hunting (1 attack per turn with this weapon, poisoned 2+, AP-3, D6 damage. If you roll a 6 on the damage roll, the target dies), or chain flails (8 attacks, reroll to wound, -1 AP, D1).

Quote :

Mandrakes: These guys are supposed to be our assassins, but they lack any rules that really help them do that beyond deep striking. They need to be able to single out characters with their shooting, or deal multiple/mortal wounds to characters in CC.
The Nightfiend could have a "Death sentence" weapon that can target HQs. If it hits, all the Mandrakes in the unit can target that HQ until the end of the turn.

Quote :
Incubi: These guys are already pretty damn awesome, but to put them on par with aspect warriors they need at least something. I vote that they get +1 attack when outnumbered.

These are already quite powerful indeed. I'd rather see them gain 1 attack when within 3" of another, ally or enemy, HQ. They don't play the pleb-game. They are king guards, and king slayers.





What you DIDN'T talk about : beastmasters. I want bloody Beastmasters to become HQs, just like they were in WHFB Dark Elves codices.

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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Sun Dec 24 2017, 00:31

Cannot believe I forgot about beastmasters! Honestly don't know them well enough to make decisions for them. Open to suggestions!

Happily agree about pain engines and Incubi

Grotesque... maybe rampage equivelent? +1 attack when outnumbered, or +d3 if outnumbered by more than 2 to 1. Reroll failed invuls against any weapon of strength 5 or less as a callback to their 3rd edition rules?

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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Sun Dec 24 2017, 00:52

Another rule Grots could have to make them GEQ murdermachines

"Whenever an melee attack hits Grotesques, but fails to damage them (because it didn't wound, got saved, or canceled by inured to pain), the Grotesque unit gains a single bonus attack. Those attacks are realized at the very end of the combat phase, even if Grotesques have died in the unit, if there is at least 1 Grotesque in the unit".

That would make sending low-quality units against grotesques very dangerous, as the more attacks you pour onto them, the more they get pissed-off at you, and the more they murder your comrades.

It would also go very well with the models. Wracks to me are the sadistic killers. Taloi are the methodical brainless murdermachine. But Grotesques... they are the bloodfrenzied abominations, and their profile/rules need to show that these things are... wild...

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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Sun Dec 24 2017, 01:25

Grotesque smash! Puny God!

We still lack an anti big stuff melee option, which is annoying given how many melee specialists we have. Still, haywire grenades could totally fix that.
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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Sun Dec 24 2017, 02:35

I agree, but i think that their identity should be reflected on his armory too.

Cults are fast and exploit the weakness of the enemy, they should have weapons with AP bonus.

- Wyches and reavers with AP-2 on 6+ wounds
- Hellions with AP -1 always.

Covens are our strong units, they should have weapons with damage bonus.

-Haemonculus tools, flesh gauntlet, etc. If the bearer strength<target toughness, this weapons wounds on a 4+, unless it is targeting a vehicle,[...]. If the bearer strength>target toughness, this weapon wounds normaly, and have a damage characteristic of D3 insted of 1.

- macro-scalpel:add "the remainging damage passes to the unit"

To me, incubi should be a balance betwen Cults and covens, so I think that AP-2 D2 would be perfect to them.

I don't know what think about mandrakes. Is true that supposed to be our assassins, but mortal wounds are dificult to balance. I whish GW give us a new box and to units of mandrakes,  one range unit (our equivalent to a sniper) and one melee. Each time you roll a wound of  6+, the target suffers 1 mortal wound in addtion to any other damage.

This is how I think that the diferent between "faccion's weapons" could be. Of course with is corresponding balance in cost.
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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Sun Dec 24 2017, 04:38

Just copy Eldar and make COven like Wraith units, toughness, slower and stronger.

Wcyh cults should be cheaper (they should be our cheapest units) faster, and more hits, oh and rending, i want freakin shurikens, im so tired of poison

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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Sun Dec 24 2017, 06:10

@amishprn86 wrote:
Just copy Eldar and make COven like Wraith units, toughness, slower and stronger.

Wych cults should be cheaper (they should be our cheapest units) faster, and more hits, oh and rending, i want freakin shurikens, im so tired of poison

I've been thinking about poison. I came up with a rule to represent how poison works relative to body size. This is to help us with anti-horde, as DL's already take down high-T targets.

Poison wounds on a 3+ (maybe 2+???) against single wound enemies, a 4+ against 2-3 wound enemies, and a 5+ against 4+ wound enemies. 6+ against vehicles.

Although this is a bit wierd against characters, i think it removes the responsibility of poison to go after big targets, as venom has a better effect on a smaller creature. This gives us dedicated anti-infantry weapons, not weapons that are ok at harming anything but good against nothing.

stratagems could be used to have a more potent poison (+1-2 to wound rolls)

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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Sun Dec 24 2017, 06:51

To be honest, I think poison could be changed to S 3 ( S4 for cannon), rerolling wounds against non-vehicles, and dealing +1 damage on a 6 to wound.
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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Sun Dec 24 2017, 10:37

@FuelDrop wrote:

We still lack an anti big stuff melee option, which is annoying given how many melee specialists we have. Still, haywire grenades could totally fix that.

Our ideal melee BGH should be the Talos with 2 Ichor Injectors. But currently that weapon isn't playable.

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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Sun Dec 24 2017, 11:15

I feel a new letter to GW coming up. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Sun Dec 24 2017, 12:03

@tlronin wrote:
I feel a new letter to GW coming up. Wink

Considering the amount of wishlisting this forum produces on a daily basis, we could send them a dictionary-sized compendium of our wishes and requests every single week Smile


Quote :

Grotesque smash! Puny God!

If there was one comicbook phrase i'd use for Grotesques, it would probably be taken from Bane.
"You think you can inflict me pain ?? You merely adopted pain.... i was born in it.... molded by it...."

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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Sun Dec 24 2017, 12:13

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:

We still lack an anti big stuff melee option, which is annoying given how many melee specialists we have. Still, haywire grenades could totally fix that.

Our ideal melee BGH should be the Talos with 2 Ichor Injectors. But currently that weapon isn't playable.

I was more thinking something that can take on things like Dreadnaughts, Killer Kans, ect. Anti vehicle melee is definitely our blindspot, which would not be an issue were it not for many vehicles being pretty good in Melee, and most armies having something that fills the niche.
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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Sun Dec 24 2017, 12:19

Ah. Well yes, Haywire wyches would wreck those.

So you'd have Taloi that could group up and stomp Tyrants, Mortarions and the like, and wyches throwing packs of grenades on Naughts.

Like always, our arsenal depends on whether the enemy is or isn't a vehicle.

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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Sun Dec 24 2017, 14:58

@FuelDrop wrote:

Wyches/Bloodbrides: +1 to wound on the charge. Make that initial strike count.

Wyches want to stay in combat as long as possible. By tieing up enemy units in CC, you can render them useless. Their abilities should capitalize around this fact and they should emerge strong from a fight, rather than crumbling to dust.

@FuelDrop wrote:

Hellions: Double Casualties for morale purposes on the turn they charge.

I like the concept. Too bad that most enemy factions have an easy way of dealing with casualties due to morale .

@FuelDrop wrote:

Reavers: Double Attacks on the turn they charge. Hit and Run.

Good idea, I'd take it. But honestly, I think the Reaver needs some big rework.


@FuelDrop wrote:

Grotesques: These guys should be monsters in combat. They need at least 4-5 wounds each, and a special rule that gives +1 attack when outnumbered.

100% agree. 4 wounds + rampage would make them worthwhile.

@FuelDrop wrote:

Pain Engines: These guys need to be our hard counter to hordes. Give them +1 attack for every two models within 2 inches and watch them tear through large units like a knife through butter.

I am on the same side with Mqq here. Chain Flails for anti horde, Ichor Injector as anti big bug and Macro Scalpels for everything else.

But the biggest problem I have with the Pain Engines is not the damage, their too high point costs or defense. I think they should be much faster. They should get rules like the old Scout, and increased movement profile or perhaps even Deep Strike.

We shouldn't have the biggest and meanest monsters in 40k, but they should be the ones who can be employed anywhere on the field, at any time if necessary. That's the thing that strikes terror in your opponent's heart.


@FuelDrop wrote:

Mandrakes: These guys are supposed to be our assassins, but they lack any rules that really help them do that beyond deep striking. They need to be able to single out characters with their shooting, or deal multiple/mortal wounds to characters in CC.

Sounds great. They are assassins and should focus on killing characters or isolated units in the backfield.

@FuelDrop wrote:

Incubi: These guys are already pretty damn awesome, but to put them on par with aspect warriors they need at least something. I vote that they get +1 attack when outnumbered.

My biggest problem with them is that their attack do only 1 damage. They work perfectly against MEQ, but their weight of attacks suddenly wear off once you attack something with 2 wounds or more. The Klaivex somewhat offsets this, but 3 damage is overkill and simply doesn't make a huge difference after all.

Incubi should deal 2 damage on a 5+ to wound and the Klaivex needs rampage back.

Just my 2 cents

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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Sun Dec 24 2017, 15:22

I'd love a blood frenzy ability similar to the blood dancer that the cult HQ's got from Chapter Approved.

It doesn't have to be the "3 hits" on a hit roll of a 6+ kinda thing, it could even be, on a "To Wound" roll of a 6+, generate another hit, to imply that the grotesques or Talos are physically smashing through a poor guardsman and the attack carries into the next one.

In fact, the return of a Smash rule would be kinda cool to see across the board for those low attack big boys fighting against chaff like Conscripts.

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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Sun Dec 24 2017, 19:29

@Barrywise wrote:
I'd love a blood frenzy ability similar to the blood dancer that the cult HQ's got from Chapter Approved.

It doesn't have to be the "3 hits" on a hit roll of a 6+ kinda thing, it could even be, on a "To Wound" roll of a 6+, generate another hit, to imply that the grotesques or Talos are physically smashing through a poor guardsman and the attack carries into the next one.

What about...and this is a bit crazy, I know, if all units that have power from pain (Or maybe just everything in the codex, I dunno...) also gained a rule (perhaps named death by a thousand cuts?) where any to hit rolls of 6+ generated one additional hit (this applying to any to hit roll mind you, melee or ranged). Combine that with perhaps a change to PfF to turn 3 is a +1 to all hit rolls as well so kabalites and the like can feel included?

Obviously these could potentially be really, really strong (darklance scourges for example). But for one, it would be something a bit synergistic within the army. Bonus to hit rolls on turn 3 then translates into better bonus hits. Plus I've seen a number of people here seem to prefer to the idea of wyches having more attacks rather than stronger attacks for the theme/flavor, so the above combined with all wych units gaining an extra attack on their profile (Succubus going to like 6 perhaps?)?

I don't know the math on all of that and I doubt it's a perfect fix to everything we want, but it sounds cool to me, it's a bit different and isn't just "better stats" and turning things like wyches into light armored khorne berserkers, and again goes with the long theorized but hardly ever realized theme of "death by a thousand cuts." Dark Eldar are said to rarely if ever use massive, singular weaponry but instead drown the enemy in blade, darklight, and poison. So upping the accuracy and partial rate of fire of our guns, and giving more attacks even if they're not the most powerful hits (though combat drugs still exist for the wyches) I think could add a bit extra punch while being able to keep most of them from actually gaining in points price.

I also wondered about the idea of all splinter weapons gaining to wound rolls of 6+ against non-vehicles become damage 2? It'd help just a bit with the "splinter weapons are now terrible against monsters" problem (again, I don't know how much but...it's got to be something, right?).

On the topic of reavers, I'd also agree on wanting to see some of their old flavor come back in a revamped form of their 5th edition bladevanes. Something along the lines of a unit being able to gain a free "fight phase" against a single enemy unit that they've moved over in the movement phase (and only the movement phase). They make hit and wound rolls just as if they were fighting as normal. Doing something like that rather than a separate rule would then let them synergize with things like an arena champion with an agonizer, combat drug choices (most people here seem to like the toughness drug, but I've seen several also like extra attacks so this kind of rule would make the choice less automatic to the toughness crowd). It would also work with the above idea of gaining extra hits since you'd make normal to hit rolls as well.

Now this idea is also partly with the idea that reavers do NOT gain advance and charge though perhaps upgraded their splinter rifles to shard carbines? This idea would then make the choice of advance to get to a unit further back (and with shard carbines still be able to shoot) but not make a charge that turn, or not advance but be able to strike a unit in the movement, shoot, and then charge as well (at 3 seperate units even if that is the choice to be made).

I don't know if these are just over the top silly or not, but they sound fun to me and hopefully mechanically worthwhile without being super complex either.


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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Sun Dec 24 2017, 22:26

Stop. If you continue to speak, I fear that you will draw the eye of She-Who-Thirsts from the pleasure this brings me. Twisted Evil

I'll work backwards, and from least to greatest topic in my view.

Shardcarbines on Reavers sounds reeeally good. For their price and the prevalence of Multi-wound weapons and plasma this edition, Reavers are in a bit of a tough spot and I think that they need some sort of buff like that. Also it seems fluffy to me that they would keep their speed while just spraying down loads of poison.

2 damage on 6+ on the to-wound roll seems really powerful to me, albeit very fluffy with the poison having found a major vein/artery/nerve cluster. I might run the full math later, but the simplest way for me to think of it is, wounding on a 4+, so 1/3 of the wounds are a 6+, so 1/3 of the wounds are normal and 1/6 of the to-wound rolls are 2 damage(another 1/3). So if there were 10 to-wound rolls, you'd end up with 6.66 (2/3) wounds overall instead of half(1/2 or 4+), aka 5 wounds. so a 33% increase in effectiveness against multiwound targets, so powerful, but not as scary as I originally thought. I don't think we really struggle all that much with, as we have DL's Dissies to deal with armor or high toughness.

In terms of PfP, I think our turn 4+ stuff is pretty weak and your suggestions would be pretty cool. Maybe +1 damage on shooting, +1 hits in melee. I dunno, I'm running out of time before family time so i'm scrambling to jot some ideas down. Currently our PfP works by helping us survive, help us make it into combat, help us hit and then the rest of the powers makes the enemy run, and we stay in. Kinda useless past turn 3 bonus. Having something that would actually help us kill would be much better. I'd much prefer something that implies the Dark Eldar are becoming more focused on the kill. Almost like the pain and suffering is acting like Adderall or something.

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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Sun Dec 24 2017, 23:37

@Barrywise wrote:
Stop. If you continue to speak, I fear that you will draw the eye of She-Who-Thirsts from the pleasure this brings me. Twisted Evil

Sorry, but I forgot more reaver things. ^_^ On the line that they gained my above mentioned rule, I'd also think that the caltrops and grav talons were revamped in some way as well. Something like wounds of 6+ cause a mortal wound in addition to normal damage when making attacks with the models bladevanes for the caltrops (so once again, useful for it's special rule AND fighting normally and thus benefits from extra attacks, bonus hits, etc) and maybe something like a -1 penalty to hit and prevents overwatch for units hit by the grav talon until the end of the current player turn.  Also still useful in both the movement phase ability and assault phase (if you can charge and attack first, you can still apply the penalty to hit before getting attacked).

So the choice becomes "damage or penalties" rather than the current "damage when I charge, or damage when I run away" which to me are both...eh. Thought process being that now reavers could grant "banshee-like" abilities to basically any unit, but it isn't as straightforward as simply giving said abilities to wyches and then using nothing but wyches (won't that be the day...). Thus it fits the supposed GW stand point of "we want all units to be good" and creates more synergy within the codex. And again, it fits with the dark eldar idea of "gang up and cut things down after kicking them in the knees."


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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Sun Dec 24 2017, 23:39

Quote :
Thus it fits the supposed GW stand point of "we want all units to be good

They actually said that ? Shocked

If they actively wanted to do the exact opposite... they'd do exactly what they have been doing for decades...

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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Sun Dec 24 2017, 23:43

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
Thus it fits the supposed GW stand point of "we want all units to be good

They actually said that ? Shocked

If they actively wanted to do the exact opposite... they'd do exactly what they have been doing for decades...

*Shrugs* I swear I read on at least one if not multiple of their community site articles that their aim is to make as many if not every unit viable for play. Whether they hold up to that, who knows.
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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Mon Dec 25 2017, 01:28

The Beastmaster is pretty good as is... but I would love to see him moved to the HQ slot.
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PostSubject: Re: On the charge   Mon Dec 25 2017, 03:45

Cluster Caltrops
Melee. Strength user, AP 0, damage 1. Special rules: +2 attacks. On the charge, this weapon is S x2 and generates an extra attack on every to hit roll of 5+.
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