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 Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!

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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 21 2017, 07:46

Hello there,

Long time reader firtst time.... nah been here for a while and back with my Lords of the Iron Thorn.

Anywho back to topic.
Mandrakes have the wonderful special rule, which subtracts 1 from any hit roll directed at them. This rule is not specific to the shooting phase, so it works against shooting and CC and also during Overwatch. This would result in only auto hit weapons being able to hit them, correct?

So DS 9” away and charge and negate the enemy overwatch, most of it.
Sounds like coming out of the shadows to me.

Am I missing something?

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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 21 2017, 08:24

The Rules wrote:
Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 21 2017, 09:07

I believe there is also a rule that says modifiers are added/subtracted before a flat change in to-hit. Hence why Dark Reapers can hit anything on a 3+, despite modifiers
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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 21 2017, 16:15

Considering the number of units in the game with that special rule... overwatch wouldn't exist anymore.

But it doesn't work. Sorry !

It also means something funny : you can hit with overwatch a unit you wouldn't be able to hit with a normal shooting action.

GW should have stated that a 6 is always a hit. If they go with the "a 6 is always wounded, because you can have a lucky shot, and blablabla", i can't see why it doesn't apply to hitting. I mean come on, a lasgun can "get lucky" and damage a Land Raider, but an Ork cannot "get lucky" and hit an Alaitoc ranger ?

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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 21 2017, 16:58

@Count Adhemar wrote:
The Rules wrote:
Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

So the how does the Mordian Iron Guard special rule of +1 on the Hit roll during Overwatch work. By reading this rule as: any kind of modifiers are canceled out, then this would also cancel out the Mordian Iron Guard special rule.

For reference, you can find the Mordian Iron Guard special rule here.

I think what the quoted rule above states that the modifiers to the balistic skill are ignored but not the modefiers to the roll itself. Basically the Mandrake special rule does the same think that the mordian rule does, just opposite.

And I am not sure if the Mandrakes special rule is so common. For instance the Venom’s -1 only applies in the shooting phase.

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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 21 2017, 18:31

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
The Rules wrote:
Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

So the how does the Mordian Iron Guard special rule of +1 on the Hit roll during Overwatch work. By reading this rule as: any kind of modifiers are canceled out, then this would also cancel out the Mordian Iron Guard special rule.

For reference, you can find the Mordian Iron Guard special rule here.

I think what the quoted rule above states that the modifiers to the balistic skill are ignored but not the modefiers to the roll itself. Basically the Mandrake special rule does the same think that the mordian rule does, just opposite.

And I am not sure if the Mandrakes special rule is so common. For instance the Venom’s -1 only applies in the shooting phase.

General rules applies except when a codex rule explicitely override the general rules. In the case of the Mordian, it explicitely state that a modifier is applied to overwatch.
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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 21 2017, 19:46

Yep, Mordians explicitly state that it works for overwatch. Had it not, it wouldn't apply to overwatch.

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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 21 2017, 20:03

@dumpeal wrote:
General rules applies except when a codex rule explicitely override the general rules. In the case of the Mordian, it explicitely state that a modifier is applied to overwatch.

I fully agree. And the Mandrakes rule specifically states that any to hit roll targeting that unit gets a -1 on the roll. If it was just in the shooting phase it would specifically state that. If it were the shooting and CC phase, again it would state it. But it specifically says any attacks. Anything with a to hit roll gets modified.

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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 21 2017, 21:22

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
General rules applies except when a codex rule explicitely override the general rules. In the case of the Mordian, it explicitely state that a modifier is applied to overwatch.

I fully agree. And the Mandrakes rule specifically states that any to hit roll targeting that unit gets a -1 on the roll. If it was just in the shooting phase it would specifically state that. If it were the shooting and CC phase, again it would state it. But it specifically says any attacks. Anything with a to hit roll gets modified.

That sort of rule lawyering might get you kicked out of a lot of playgroups... Overwatch does not target a unit per se, you react to unit charging you so your point is moot as it clearly is stated that a unit must TARGET you with an attack, not to mention that the wording clearly states that Overwatch does not get affected by modifiers unless stated in a specific rule.

Tl, DR - it works only on Shooting and CC, as they require targeting Mandrakes specifically. Overwatch reamins unafected as you do not target.

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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 21 2017, 21:55

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
General rules applies except when a codex rule explicitely override the general rules. In the case of the Mordian, it explicitely state that a modifier is applied to overwatch.

I fully agree. And the Mandrakes rule specifically states that any to hit roll targeting that unit gets a -1 on the roll. If it was just in the shooting phase it would specifically state that. If it were the shooting and CC phase, again it would state it. But it specifically says any attacks. Anything with a to hit roll gets modified.

For it to work, the codex rule needs to specifically talk about the overwatch. If it was not the case, the "hit on a 6, without any modifier" would never apply. Almost every modifiers to hit are on the codexes.
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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 22 2017, 04:33

This one seems quite straightforward. Mandrakes cause a -1 to hit modifier and overwatch hits on a 6 regardless of modifiers.

This seems to be the downside of not using the standardised rules system from 7th edition, as minor variations in the wording from rule to rule can lead to confusion of this nature.

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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 22 2017, 05:47

@mightydoughnut wrote:
That sort of rule lawyering might get you kicked out of a lot of playgroups... Overwatch does not target a unit per se, you react to unit charging you so your point is moot as it clearly is stated that a unit must TARGET you with an attack, not to mention that the wording clearly states that Overwatch does not get affected by modifiers unless stated in a specific rule.

Tl, DR - it works only on Shooting and CC, as they require targeting Mandrakes specifically. Overwatch reamins unafected as you do not target.

I think a nice rules talk has never hurt. I eould not stall a game because of it though.

I don’t agree with you that Overwatch doesn’t target. It even says it in the rules: .. the target unit can immediately fire overwatch at the would be attacker.

@dumpeal wrote:
For it to work, the codex rule needs to specifically talk about the overwatch. If it was not the case, the "hit on a 6, without any modifier" would never apply. Almost every modifiers to hit are on the codexes.

If it would not work because it specifically needs to meantion it, then it would not work in any phases as no phase is specifically meantioned. Does that seem right?

@Kantalla wrote:
This one seems quite straightforward. Mandrakes cause a -1 to hit modifier and overwatch hits on a 6 regardless of modifiers.

This seems to be the downside of not using the standardised rules system from 7th edition, as minor variations in the wording from rule to rule can lead to confusion of this nature.

But then Overwatch could never be modified. But that is obviously not true, right?

But that is the thing. I feel like a lot of rules are super similar, like the hovering tank special rule on the various eldar tanks. But then there are some rules that differ for a very specific purpose and I think Mandrakes are one of those exceptions. Just like rangers.

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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 22 2017, 07:44

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
But then Overwatch could never be modified. But that is obviously not true, right?
'Could never be...' is a dangerous phrase to use. 40k is an arbitrary rules system, where something works because that is how GW wrote the rules. So, any rule can be changed any time that new rules are released.

Since I have been playing 40k, the normal approach seems to be the rulebook applies, unless a unit has a special rule that conflicts with the rulebook. In case of conflict the Codex trumps the rulebook.

In the case of Mandrakes and overwatch, I think the -1 to hit does not conflict with the main rulebook, so despite the -1 to hit, a roll of 6 will hit.

For Mordians, or Dire Avengers, their special rules conflict with the always need a roll of 6 to hit. In those cases the special rule would override the rulebook.

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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 22 2017, 08:21

@crazy_irish
Any to hit modifier needs to specifically mention Overwatch, as Overwatch specifically says it ignores to hit modifiers. The shooting and combat phases have no such statement, so they don't need to be mentioned directly.

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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 22 2017, 08:42

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
@mightydoughnut wrote:
That sort of rule lawyering might get you kicked out of a lot of playgroups... Overwatch does not target a unit per se, you react to unit charging you so your point is moot as it clearly is stated that a unit must TARGET you with an attack, not to mention that the wording clearly states that Overwatch does not get affected by modifiers unless stated in a specific rule.

Tl, DR - it works only on Shooting and CC, as they require targeting Mandrakes specifically. Overwatch reamins unafected as you do not target.

I think a nice rules talk has never hurt. I eould not stall a game because of it though.

I don’t agree with you that Overwatch doesn’t target. It even says it in the rules: .. the target unit can immediately fire overwatch at the would be attacker.


You are reading it wrong, mate and what you are citing is out of context, that's what I meant by "that sort of rule lawyering". The exact wording is "Each time a charge is declared against a unit, THE TARGET UNIT can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker." which means that the charging unit is not the target, the UNIT TARGETED BY CHARGE is the target unit in question here, thus, as I said before, your point is made moot.

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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 22 2017, 10:15

To me the words "fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker" are sufficient to mean there is a target unit. Also given you need to allocate wounds to the target unit, Overwatch would be useless if you don't have a target.

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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 22 2017, 10:44

@Kantalla wrote:
To me the words "fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker" are sufficient to mean there is a target unit. Also given you need to allocate wounds to the target unit, Overwatch would be useless if you don't have a target.

Yes, I agree with that but you bypass normal targeting, you do not declare the target, only the intent to Overwatch and your target is not chosen, but assigned. Maybe I am biased due to my history as a MTG judge, but the ruling looks pretty simple and digging so much into it is just rule-lawyering.

Also, there is a small detail of this here line "except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll" when it comes to Overwatch, so whether you force -1 to hit or not, 6s hit you anyway, case closed we can all go home.

Basically, the whole point of this disscussion is useless rule lawyering born from GWs proper wording problems. It reminds me of the Banshee always strikes first rule and Charges and 16 page forum war in my local store Very Happy. Not to mention that to ignore Overwatch, you need special rules, like Banshees with Jain Zar bubble. Otherwise, what's the point?

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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 22 2017, 13:36

I'm generally all over GW for sloppy rules writing but in this case the rule seems absolutely crystal clear. The Mandrakes ability applies a modifier to the hit roll. Overwatch ignores modifiers. In order for it to do what @Crazy_Irish says it does it would need to specifically say that the modifier applies to overwatch, which it doesn't.


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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 22 2017, 18:10

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'm generally all over GW for sloppy rules writing but in this case the rule seems absolutely crystal clear. The Mandrakes ability applies a modifier to the hit roll. Overwatch ignores modifiers. In order for it to do what @Crazy_Irish says it does it would need to specifically say that the modifier applies to overwatch, which it doesn't.

I agree with you, I also think GW was crystal clear Laughing
Yes, the rule does not specifically state overwatch. Neither does it specifically mention the shooting phase, a ranged weapon or the attack phase.
For all other rulings, they have used either of these words to state in which specific instances the rule takes place. Instead they chose to write: "from the hit rolls of any attacks that target this unit."

Any attack. If this does not include overwatch then what does it actually include. Because this is a Index rule, and Index rule trumps Main Rule, right?
My rule layering, as y'all might put it, is that it does not matter, if I say a specific phase or any attack because any attack should include every phase right?


@mightydoughnut: Fair point of taking things out of context, though if you add the last sentence it says that overwatch uses all normal rules for shooting attacks except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll. Hence targeting is part of overwatch, just that there is only the would be attacker that you can chose.

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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 22 2017, 18:56

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'm generally all over GW for sloppy rules writing but in this case the rule seems absolutely crystal clear. The Mandrakes ability applies a modifier to the hit roll. Overwatch ignores modifiers. In order for it to do what @Crazy_Irish says it does it would need to specifically say that the modifier applies to overwatch, which it doesn't.

I agree with you, I also think GW was crystal clear Laughing
Yes, the rule does not specifically state overwatch. Neither does it specifically mention the shooting phase, a ranged weapon or the attack phase.
For all other rulings, they have used either of these words to state in which specific instances the rule takes place. Instead they chose to write: "from the hit rolls of any attacks that target this unit."

Any attack. If this does not include overwatch then what does it actually include. Because this is a Index rule, and Index rule trumps Main Rule, right?
My rule layering, as y'all might put it, is that it does not matter, if I say a specific phase or any attack because any attack should include every phase right?


@mightydoughnut: Fair point of taking things out of context, though if you add the last sentence it says that overwatch uses all normal rules for shooting attacks except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll. Hence targeting is part of overwatch, just that there is only the would be attacker that you can chose.  

"any" is too general to include an exception like overwatch. "What do you use to state that 1 rule is an exception?" ... When it is explicitely stated in the rule book.

We use to say "unit rule override codex rule. Codex rules override rulebook.". But it's more like "general unit rule override general codex rules. General codex rules override general rulebook rules. But general unit rule doesn't override specific codex rules. Neither specific rulebook rules"
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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 10 2018, 20:31

Oh well any unit that gets 5 to hit on overwatch has it taken back to 6 shooting at mandrakes
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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 10 2018, 21:49

@Crazy_Irish wrote:


Any attack. If this does not include overwatch then what does it actually include. Because this is a Index rule, and Index rule trumps Main Rule, right?
My rule layering, as y'all might put it, is that it does not matter, if I say a specific phase or any attack because any attack should include every phase right?
 

By that logic any rule stating "Add +1 to any roll made by this weapon/unit" would Overwatch on 5+ ?

Overwatch cannot be modified. Adding 1, or substracting 1, is a modifier.
Unless the Index/codex rule clearly states that it ignores the basic rule that says that overwatch rolls cannot be modified, then it follows that rule, and the overwatch role cannot be modified.

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PostSubject: Re: Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?!   Soo Mandrakes - Immune to Overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 11 2018, 08:54

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'm generally all over GW for sloppy rules writing but in this case the rule seems absolutely crystal clear. The Mandrakes ability applies a modifier to the hit roll. Overwatch ignores modifiers. In order for it to do what @Crazy_Irish says it does it would need to specifically say that the modifier applies to overwatch, which it doesn't.


My take too. I don't quite see that there can be any debating about that as it is a question of a modifier being applied in a situation which explicitly doesn't allow for any modifiers being applied. No wording interpretation can be had here. Also no rules lawyering should be considered regarding a situation which is as clear as it can be.

No offense meant, but I see the intent on apply a -1 on Overwatch as an example of bad sportsmanship, trying to stretch the rules to such an extent.

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