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sunspear
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PostSubject: Trying to understand Drukhari   Thu Dec 21 2017, 04:11

So I'm getting back into the game after a couple of editions away and I am about to buy some minis. I am trying to get a better understanding of the basic Drukhari tactics around the raider. I realize they are fast, troops carrier and can take DLs. But what do I use them for? Is it to zip around the table firing the DL and splinter rifles and as cover for my kabalites?
I'm planning on a kabalite heavy army by the way.
If that is the case, wouldn't more units of kabalites with DLs do just as good? I'm just curious, still learning. But any help would be appreciated.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Thu Dec 21 2017, 10:58

I am definitely not the most experienced general here.

But my take:
1) extra speed, you want to hit with most of your army on part of his so that he cannot hit you back with most of his army.
2) protection, 10 t5 (6 with heamy) 5++ wounds is usually better then 13/14 t3 5+ wounds
similar target saturation, also helps, usually our high threaths (ravagers etc) are also mostly vehicle so his anti infantry shooting does less work if you don't give him optimal targets.

That being said it depends a little bit on your army, you do miss out on 12-24 splinter shots if you do not take the vehicle. If your whole army is composed of mainly foot troops you might wish to stick to it so the bunch of lascannons that he brings are waisted instead. Unfortunately the units that would really make this play possible are slightly expensive, kabalites and scourges are ok in price, (I think) but the other faster elements like wyches, reavers and hellions are so expensive that you often miss the protection of the vehicles and they die to fast.
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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Thu Dec 21 2017, 11:01

Kabalites outside of transports die when sneezed at so you need the transports to keep them alive. Raiders give you mobility, a measure of survivability (comparitively speaking) and the Dark Lance they carry is Assualt, not Heavy, so no -1 to shooting when moving and you can advance and still shoot with a -1 to hit. It's also worth remembering that the Dark Lance is only 36" range, on a foot sloggin unit that would only cover half the table so you're not guaranteed to get into range of your opponents big stuff, Raiders and Ravagers add 14" (+D6 if you advance) to that threat range.
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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Thu Dec 21 2017, 12:18

And they can actually assault. Not just "everything can assault" - they can actually viably assault. Attack with legitimacy, tie up a tank, if it does not pop out of combat on his turn you can fall back, shoot everything.
And I use them to block movement. Depending on how your terrain is set up, I usually fly a Raider up and stop its movement sideways from how my opponent is moving, making it difficult for him to move around terrain to get to better targets and/or objectives.

I can't play DE without 4-6 Raiders now. They seem like the most valuable pieces on my side of the table even without throwing any dice at all.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Thu Dec 21 2017, 16:19

@sunspear wrote:
So I'm getting back into the game after a couple of editions away and I am about to buy some minis. I am trying to get a better understanding of the basic Drukhari tactics around the raider. I realize they are fast, troops carrier and can take DLs. But what do I use them for? Is it to zip around the table firing the DL and splinter rifles and as cover for my kabalites?
I'm planning on a kabalite heavy army by the way.
If that is the case, wouldn't more units of kabalites with DLs do just as good? I'm just curious, still learning. But any help would be appreciated.

If you want to get Darklight, the best buy is ravagers.

Raiders+kabs are all-purpose. You can have 2 DL (and a blaster, but i don't really care for them), 18 poison shots, decent assault ability, PGL, decent HP pool and objective holding...

I usually run 10 kabs (with DL)+raider, and it costs around 200pts, which is really reasonnable for what it lets you do.
But again, ravagers are also an incredibly useful unit, and you should mix both for the perfect kabalite army.
I'd recommend you stay away from Trueborns, though. Blasters aren't really the thing anymore.

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sunspear
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Thu Dec 21 2017, 16:29

Ok, great info. Thanks.
Like I said, I'm just getting back into the game and I have never played Drukhari before. I've been reading and watching batreps but I'm still needing to grasp them a lot obviously.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Thu Dec 21 2017, 16:54

There is a part of me that wonders if we really need transports in this edition - you can have 25 Kabalites for the same cost as 10 Kabalites in one Raider, and I'm not immediately convinced on paper that the mobility and added toughness makes the reduction in table coverage and number of splinter shots worth it.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Thu Dec 21 2017, 18:26

@Burnage wrote:
There is a part of me that wonders if we really need transports in this edition - you can have 25 Kabalites for the same cost as 10 Kabalites in one Raider, and I'm not immediately convinced on paper that the mobility and added toughness makes the reduction in table coverage and number of splinter shots worth it.

Especially with the WWP stratagem, where you can deepstrike 40 kabalites anywhere. I'm feeling that way, too.
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Dizzie
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Thu Dec 21 2017, 18:50

Raiders allow you to move 14" and shoot with everything inside, this allows your troops to bring arms to pretty much anywhere you would like and bully your army against small portions of your opponents.
Our skimmers are decent in HTH for tanks, you can basically lock down other tanks in HTH, fly off and shoot and keep enemy vehicles from shooting (this requires good understanding of our army to work well), you can do this against units too, flying units don't suffer from retreat and not being able to shoot after, covered in main rules.
Also you can get your skimmers to take the flakk from overwatch and your squads can charge taking zero shots as the skimmer is already engaged. there's no penalty for a lance on a skimmer either since they get assault instead.

This is the basics of it, there's a lot more to it and more strategies to it, but you can work out the rest from what i just explained.
there's always going to be pros and cons for in Raiders or on foot, use what works for you, not everyone's meta is the same.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Thu Dec 21 2017, 23:26

Dizzie- when you say out vehicles can engage in HTH and then fly off and shoot, I understand that part. But how can we stop from being shot? By using terrain and our range of movement?
I'm still new to this edition and totally new to this faction
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Fri Dec 22 2017, 00:34

@sunspear wrote:
Dizzie- when you say out vehicles can engage in HTH and then fly off and shoot, I understand that part. But how can we stop from being shot? By using terrain and our range of movement?
I'm still new to this edition and totally new to this faction
You engage them. If they can't fly, they have the choice between :
A, stay locked, and not shoot
B, disengage, and not shoot.

Your turn comes. You disengage, shoot, then charge again.

Result : you're shooting everyturn, while you enemy isn't (he does have an overwatch though).

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Dizzie
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Fri Dec 22 2017, 00:41

Basically yeah make sure there's LOS blocking terrain and plenty off it due to how the ruleset has changed with terrain. Terrain doesn't help much this edition though, its been nerfed a lot, however our skimmers are way more survivable now, you could do the haemonculus trick, for +1T on vehicles.

I would advise prioritising targets in shooting, figuring out which targets are the biggest threat to your skimmers, usually this would be heavy weapon squads and multi-shot mid to high str vehicle weapons. Expect to take hits and lose skimmers, this will happen, but in the end you'll have skimmers left and good speed to keep bullying and piece meal opponents armies due to your movement, don't be afraid to retreat and then counter attack again.
When situation calls for it don't forget your skimmers are a massive help in HTH, especially the ones  dropping melee units, these are generally the skimmers I use to sacrifice and lock other vehicles/squads down.

edit: as Mppqlmd said, i get what you are asking now lol
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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Fri Dec 22 2017, 00:58

I'm not sold on giant warrior blobs on foot. Warriors are basically made of paper and until turn 4 we have no way to make them fearless. Plus, Drukahri have always been a meched up force. I could easily see someone devoting a couple shots at the blob and then loosing several more due to failed morale checks.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Fri Dec 22 2017, 01:09

Dizzie, mppqlmd- thanks for the explanations. I hadn't thought about that.
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Clothar
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Fri Dec 22 2017, 02:01

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@sunspear wrote:
Dizzie- when you say out vehicles can engage in HTH and then fly off and shoot, I understand that part. But how can we stop from being shot? By using terrain and our range of movement?
I'm still new to this edition and totally new to this faction
You engage them. If they can't fly, they have the choice between :
A, stay locked, and not shoot
B, disengage, and not shoot.

Your turn comes. You disengage, shoot, then charge again.

Result : you're shooting everyturn, while you enemy isn't (he does have an overwatch though).

Our vehicles can fall back, charge and shoot in the same turn? I thought only our Hellions could recharge on a fall back.
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Dizzie
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Fri Dec 22 2017, 02:50

@Clothar wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
@sunspear wrote:
Dizzie- when you say out vehicles can engage in HTH and then fly off and shoot, I understand that part. But how can we stop from being shot? By using terrain and our range of movement?
I'm still new to this edition and totally new to this faction
You engage them. If they can't fly, they have the choice between :
A, stay locked, and not shoot
B, disengage, and not shoot.

Your turn comes. You disengage, shoot, then charge again.

Result : you're shooting everyturn, while you enemy isn't (he does have an overwatch though).

Our vehicles can fall back, charge and shoot in the same turn? I thought only our Hellions could recharge on a fall back.

All units with fly keyword, so it interesting for us if hellions and reavers were cheaper and worthwhile, this is the reason also that scourges lost their extra att imo. You can't charge after unless i missed something but nothings to stop you from using two skimmers to that desired effect.

Falling Back
Units starting the Movement phase
within 1" of an enemy unit can either
remain stationary or Fall Back. If you
choose to Fall Back, the unit must end its
move more than 1" away from all enemy
units. If a unit Falls Back, it cannot
Advance (see below), or charge later that
turn. A unit that Falls Back also cannot
shoot later that turn unless it can Fly
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Fri Dec 22 2017, 04:24

@lament.config wrote:
I'm not sold on giant warrior blobs on foot. Warriors are basically made of paper and until turn 4 we have no way to make them fearless. Plus, Drukahri have always been a meched up force. I could easily see someone devoting a couple shots at the blob and then loosing several more due to failed morale checks.

You don't need them as a single unit, for what it's worth. Five units of five Kabalites is going to be less vulnerable to morale tests and will fill out more Troops slots for extra CP, although you lose out on being able to Webway them.
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Clothar
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Fri Dec 22 2017, 06:32

@Dizzie wrote:
@Clothar wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
@sunspear wrote:
Dizzie- when you say out vehicles can engage in HTH and then fly off and shoot, I understand that part. But how can we stop from being shot? By using terrain and our range of movement?
I'm still new to this edition and totally new to this faction
You engage them. If they can't fly, they have the choice between :
A, stay locked, and not shoot
B, disengage, and not shoot.

Your turn comes. You disengage, shoot, then charge again.

Result : you're shooting everyturn, while you enemy isn't (he does have an overwatch though).

Our vehicles can fall back, charge and shoot in the same turn? I thought only our Hellions could recharge on a fall back.

All units with fly keyword, so it interesting for us if hellions and reavers were cheaper and worthwhile, this is the reason also that scourges lost their extra att imo. You can't charge after unless i missed something but nothings to stop you from using two skimmers to that desired effect.

Falling Back
Units starting the Movement phase
within 1" of an enemy unit can either
remain stationary or Fall Back. If you
choose to Fall Back, the unit must end its
move more than 1" away from all enemy
units. If a unit Falls Back, it cannot
Advance (see below), or charge later that
turn. A unit that Falls Back also cannot
shoot later that turn unless it can Fly

Hellions can charge after a fall back as they have the special ability Hit and Run. Nothing else we have should be able to do so as far as I'm aware. I just got confused because Mppqlmd was talking about falling back, shooting and then charging back in and I thought only our Hellions can do that. I thought maybe something major had changed that I completely missed.
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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Fri Dec 22 2017, 06:44

Also worth noting that the passengers in a transport can't shoot if the transport falls back. Only the transport can.

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sunspear
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Fri Dec 22 2017, 08:43

So the rule says units with 1" of the enemy may fall back but can't shoot unless it has the fly keyword.
Again, I am still learning rules but if a vehicle is in combat with an enemy unit, it is not within 1", it is in cc with the enemy unit. Am I interpreting it wrong?
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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Fri Dec 22 2017, 09:13

Within 1" is the new "in combat". They are, essentially, one and the same.
But under the Open Topped rule on the raider and venom datasheets, it states that passengers are subject to the normal restrictions such as moving and shooting heavy weapons, unable to shoot after falling back etc, as per their own keywords and weapon types.

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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Fri Dec 22 2017, 10:19

Just to backtrack a little...

Raiders are inefficient ways to get Dark Lances or Disintegrators. Ravagers are a much more efficient platform for those.

Venoms are marginally less efficient to get splinter fire than more warriors, but are much more resilient.

I would recommend Kabalites in Venoms backed up with Ravagers as the main part of a Kabalite list, and would only take a Raider if I wanted Grotesques.

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Fri Dec 22 2017, 11:25

@sunspear wrote:
So the rule says units with 1" of the enemy may fall back but can't shoot unless it has the fly keyword.
Again, I am still learning rules but if a vehicle is in combat with an enemy unit, it is not within 1", it is in cc with the enemy unit. Am I interpreting it wrong?
Basically enemy units within 1" of each other can't do anything other than Fall Back unless they have special rules or the Fly keyword to get around it.
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Dizzie
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Fri Dec 22 2017, 13:25


@Clothar wrote:
Hellions can charge after a fall back as they have the special ability Hit and Run. Nothing else we have should be able to do so as far as I'm aware. I just got confused because Mppqlmd was talking about falling back, shooting and then charging back in and I thought only our Hellions can do that. I thought maybe something major had changed that I completely missed.

Yeah i was getting confused there too, but i assumed he meant with other skimmers which is why i stated it on my reply, hit and run is great an all, but hellions need to be cheaper, reavers benefit from fly rule which is great for us too, if these two units were not so over costed they would be a nightmare in any opponents back field. Hope they get fixed in codex.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to understand Drukhari   Fri Dec 22 2017, 16:30

Hit and run is absolutly useless on hellions.

If you charge with them, you have 2 scenarios : either you wreck your enemy in your first swing, and then Hit and Run becomes irrelevant, or you fail to kill your enemy, you lose 80% of your hellions, and hit and run becomes... irrelevant.

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