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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 06:59

So, these are a couple of the "Heavy" pistols across various factions. Fair enough, right? Well the thing is that the Inferno Pistol is, of the two, objectively better. It deals more damage and has a special rule to back it up. However, it is also cheaper. Why is this?
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Aschen
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 07:32

because F*** Dark eldar, thats why
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 08:54

@Aschen wrote:
because F*** Dark eldar, thats why

I second that.

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URIEN
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 08:57

Yeah, just look at fusion pistols...

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 09:01

@URIEN wrote:
Yeah, just look at fusion pistols...

Troupes vs Bloodbrides
Starweavers vs Venoms
Embraces vs everything
Fusion Pistols vs Blast Pistols
Raising Crescendo vs PFP
4++ vs ......

There is a reason i swap to Quins a long time again.

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URIEN
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 09:26

Unfortunately the only model I really like from the Harlequins is the Death jester, not to hate on the others. They are good models. Also it's not just what good rules an army has that makes me want to play them. I play fantasy Skaven because I loved them just the same reason why I play Dark Eldar. Though I do understand your point, but I like to make the best of what I have.

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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 13:20

But, you can't just pick one thing in a army, compare it to another, similar unit, from another army and complain that they're much better.

On the same note
Warriors Vs Troupe
24" range vs 6"
Blasters Vs tiny pistol
7ppm vs 8 ppm
5+/6+++ vs 5++
Bla vs bla.

I mean, it makes no sence. Look at the whole, not just one thing that someone else does better.


Last edited by Von Snabel on Sat Dec 02 2017, 13:26; edited 1 time in total
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URIEN
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 13:24

Nicely put oad. I like to sit back and have a nice overall view of things. On a funny note the Harlequins as a stand alone army would run out of units to make a 1 on 1 comparison.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 14:49

So Von Snabel, by your reasoning it is never valid to compare two units for balancing puropses.

Must be a GW employee.
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Ubernoob1
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 15:12

I would also like to bring up that the imperial inferno pistol is more than twice the cost of a fusion pistol and is identical otherwise to it. So I'm guessing this is more of a case of extremely cheap eldar fusion pistols rather than an over costed blast pistol.
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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 15:15

You sure can.
But the comparison you made doesn't really say anything. Why not compare Las guns and Splinter Rifles, or Venom Canons and Blasters ? You said Inferno Pistol is objectivly better than Blaster Pistol.
1. Codex vs Index, so not too suprising. And while I agree that this is a poor argument and opens upp alot of hooks for negative comebacks it's still something we have to keep in mind.
2. What frame can take it. Are Marines more expensive than Kabalites ? So how many such pistol can they get in a army. What other Anti-Vehicle weaponds does the army have and how accessable are they?
But sure, if you could just take whatever weapond from whatever army on whatever unit sure, you made a good point. But you can't do that now can you.
You're just looking at one thing, and not really caring about the other aspects of the thing in question.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 15:18

@FuelDrop wrote:
So Von Snabel, by your reasoning it is never valid to compare two units for balancing puropses.

Must be a GW employee.

I don't think that's quite fair - it's more that you can't compare units in a vacuum. Yes, Harlequins are better than Wyches at the same job, but Harlequins are also literally the only unit that their army has.

"But does that matter when you can just run an Aeldari army?" is one possible response to that, but I'm noticing that soup lists are getting considerably less attractive as the Codices get released.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 18:21

@Von Snabel wrote:
You sure can.
But the comparison you made doesn't really say anything. Why not compare Las guns and Splinter Rifles, or Venom Canons and Blasters ?  You said Inferno Pistol is objectivly better than Blaster Pistol.
1. Codex vs Index, so not too suprising. And while I agree that this is a poor argument and opens upp alot of hooks for negative comebacks it's still something we have to keep in mind.  
2. What frame can take it. Are Marines more expensive than Kabalites ? So how many such pistol can they get in a army. What other Anti-Vehicle weaponds does the army have and how accessable are they?
But sure, if you could just take whatever weapond from whatever army on whatever unit sure, you made a good point. But you can't do that now can you.
You're just looking at one thing, and not really caring about the other aspects of the thing in question.

Points price include only what the item is, not who has it. Equal profiles need to start equal points.

It doesnt matter if its on a SM or a Kabal. Why? Its the same weapon profile.

It doesnt matter if its in a Rhino or a Venom, why? B.c the cost of the open top comes from the cost of the venom NOT the other units.

And FYI SoB Inferno Pistols are 9pts, the same as Fusion Pistols (they are the SAME weapon).

The only Reason a SM cost more than a Kabal is the T4, 3+ armor, Nades etc.. not b.c its guns are cheaper or better.

Guardsman and Cultists weapons are the same cost as the SM ones as well, are teh guns less effective on those units? yes, but is the gun cheaper? no, why? thats b.c the units themselves (not the gear) cost less.

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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 18:45

I agree with amish. We also HAVE looked at those things, albeit not in 8th so if you want to we can math hammer those too but being individuated parameters do not make them trivialities. We can and should compare platforms, but due to the relatively modular nature of weapon and weapon-holder platforms as an abstract concept in 40k it isn't reasonable to unite the two and say that is the only thing worth comparing.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 20:43

The reason that the Blast Pistol sucks is that it skips the central advantage that other Darklight weapons have over meltas - range.

Multi-Melta - 24"
Melta - 12"
Fusion Pistol - 6"

Dark Lance - 36"
Blaster - 18"
Blast Pistol - 6"

See the problem?

Now, granted, I don't think 9" would make a huge difference (though it would be better than nothing). However, if they made it 12", then it would at least have the same range as our basic weapons (well, same as their rapid-fire range, anyway) and pistols.

It doesn't help that (like the Blaster) it has been badly overpriced since at least 5th edition. Currently, it has no business being more than 5pts.
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 20:49

It would be fine if it also had the Melta rule, notice we dont get that either?

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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 21:08

And the blast pistol is D3 damage, rather than D6 melta.

I say that one is objectively better than the other because they have comparable accessability (HQs and squad leaders), same range, strength, and AP, one does more than twice the damage of the other (D3 vs D6 melta), and as of chapter approved the higher damage one is cheaper.

One gun is objectively better and objectively cheaper. If both were available to the same model then there would be no reason to ever take the blast pistol.
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 21:09

@amishprn86 wrote:
It would be fine if it also had the Melta rule, notice we dont get that either?

I'd much rather have the d6 damage (something Blasters aren't allowed either for some reason) than roll 2d3 and take the highest dice. And then only when within 3" of the target.

@FuelDrop wrote:
One gun is objectively better and objectively cheaper. If both were available to the same model then there would be no reason to ever take the blast pistol.

Even when they're not available on the same model, I still wouldn't touch the Blast Pistol with a barge pole.
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 21:37

Yeah... Blast Pistols are dbl the cost i would say... this is so sad, its not like a Full unit (Cough Troupes cough) can take them and go in open top vehicles, its 1 per squad.

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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 22:23

@The Shredder wrote:

Even when they're not available on the same model, I still wouldn't touch the Blast Pistol with a barge pole.

While this is fair, even you won't deny that there is a legitimate power difference between a splinter pistol and a blast pistol, and the more powerful one is also the more expensive one.

The problem here is that the cheaper one is also the more powerful one by a good margin, and they have literally just put out a supplement that is supposed to be balancing these things, and the Inferno pistol got some cuts in some armies while the blast pistol did not get any love.
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 23:08

@FuelDrop wrote:

While this is fair, even you won't deny that there is a legitimate power difference between a splinter pistol and a blast pistol, and the more powerful one is also the more expensive one.

I broadly agree. However, whilst the Blast Pistol has better damage, the range is absolutely crippling.

At least a model with a Splinter Pistol might actually get to fire the bloody thing. Razz

@FuelDrop wrote:

The problem here is that the cheaper one is also the more powerful one by a good margin, and they have literally just put out a supplement that is supposed to be balancing these things, and the Inferno pistol got some cuts in some armies while the blast pistol did not get any love.

Honestly, Chapter Approved appears to have used a dart-board to alter the cost of units.

Let me give you an example from a different army. Imperial Guard units rarely ever use Meltaguns. Plasma is a much better generalist weapon, has more interaction with doctrines, and Scions can deep strike within its optimum range (but not close enough to get the Melta effect). Currently, they're about the same price on BS3+ units and plasma is cheaper on BS4+ units.

So, what was GW's solution? A 5pt increase in the price of Meltaguns on BS3+ IG units. scratch

I guess they don't want anyone to ever take them again.


There are many other examples like this - where CA appears to have altered point costs for no apparent reason. Hence, I'm not in the least bit surprised that units which really needed help were ignored entirely.

Then again, perhaps we should be grateful that Hellions and such didn't get a price-hike. Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sat Dec 02 2017, 23:34

@The Shredder wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:

While this is fair, even you won't deny that there is a legitimate power difference between a splinter pistol and a blast pistol, and the more powerful one is also the more expensive one.

I broadly agree. However, whilst the Blast Pistol has better damage, the range is absolutely crippling.

At least a model with a Splinter Pistol might actually get to fire the bloody thing. Razz

@FuelDrop wrote:

The problem here is that the cheaper one is also the more powerful one by a good margin, and they have literally just put out a supplement that is supposed to be balancing these things, and the Inferno pistol got some cuts in some armies while the blast pistol did not get any love.

Honestly, Chapter Approved appears to have used a dart-board to alter the cost of units.

Let me give you an example from a different army. Imperial Guard units rarely ever use Meltaguns. Plasma is a much better generalist weapon, has more interaction with doctrines, and Scions can deep strike within its optimum range (but not close enough to get the Melta effect). Currently, they're about the same price on BS3+ units and plasma is cheaper on BS4+ units.

So, what was GW's solution? A 5pt increase in the price of Meltaguns on BS3+ IG units. scratch

I guess they don't want anyone to ever take them again.


There are many other examples like this - where CA appears to have altered point costs for no apparent reason. Hence, I'm not in the least bit surprised that units which really needed help were ignored entirely.

Then again, perhaps we should be grateful that Hellions and such didn't get a price-hike. Rolling Eyes

Husk Blades go back to 30 points, Splinter Cannons become 20 points, ect...
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sun Dec 03 2017, 00:33

Talking of pistols, I find myself wondering whether the new relic pistol will be a bonus or whether it will replace an existing pistol.

I hold out hope for a gunslinger HQ, however awful it may be.
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sun Dec 03 2017, 14:14


The problem is that you're comparing two bad options.

As a blood angels player, I'll tell you that you would never ever play an inferno pistol. The melta only kicks in at 3", so it really isn't a determining difference.

The 6" range (for both) means that you are rarely actually going to get to fire it as you'll usually be 9" away the turn you show up.

So you're trying to compare how will I squash a fly, with this nice expensive BMW, or this crappy used Buick. Both will kill the fly, but you can get a fly swatter to be more cost effective.
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PostSubject: Re: Blast Pistol vs Inferno Pistol   Sun Dec 03 2017, 15:59

@Silverglade wrote:

The problem is that you're comparing two bad options.

As a blood angels player, I'll tell you that you would never ever play an inferno pistol.   The melta only kicks in at 3", so it really isn't a determining difference.

The 6" range (for both) means that you are rarely actually going to get to fire it as you'll usually be 9" away the turn you show up.

So you're trying to compare how will I squash a fly, with this nice expensive BMW, or this crappy used Buick.    Both will kill the fly, but you can get a fly swatter to be more cost effective.  

And as a SoB you will take Inferno Pistols, i'm thinking about taking a 2nd unit actually for Adepticon (the unit got 12pts cheaper overall).

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