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 Improved AP vs. higher S

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Would you rather see better AP values or high Strength characteristics on our weaponry if you had to chose one or the other?
Better AP
75%
 75% [ 24 ]
Higher Strength
25%
 25% [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 32
 

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dumpeal
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Thu Dec 07 2017, 21:23

Wyches could have a rule stating "If wyche fight an opponent with a WS lower than her own, treat her as Str+1". They would wipe throught normal troops, but struggle against well-trained fighter, as it should.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Thu Dec 07 2017, 21:37

I vote we introduce a rule: Wych Cult. Units with this rule may fight twice in the fight phase, and treat the AP of any weapon they wield as 1 point better than listed.

Units with this rule:
Succubus
Wyches
Bloodbrides
Beastmasters
Hellions
Reavers


Note: This isn't a new rule, really. Beserkers get this stock, and most codex armies have some way to fight a second time in the fight phase. It means that Wyches get 4 attacks per turn (6 with drugs), the Succubus gets a healthy 8 (10 with drugs, 12 with drugs and warlord trait), Bloodbrides become legitimately dangerous with sheer number of attacks, and Reavers and Hellions become scary in close combat.
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Leninade
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Thu Dec 07 2017, 22:53

@The Shredder wrote:
@Leninade wrote:
A higher strength characteristic can easily be representative of a more skilled fighter that is able to maneuver towards the vulnerable bits of their prey. GW is never going to make any of our units any good if the community keeps getting their panties in a bunch at the mere suggestion that our power is increased. Their only option is points drops and a horde army without the support of any heavy hitters.

No one is saying they don't want a power increase.

They're saying they don't want to sacrifice fluff for power. Probably because they're desperate to preserve what little flavour we have left.

What about immortal gutter rats, that have had to earn their life every day on the streets of Commorragh, hitting harder than a guardsman would be breaking the lore? If anything I recall the older books specifically stating that the true kin were physically more imposing than their craftworld cousins.

S4, T3 sounds like the definition of glass cannon to me. Dark Eldar need to deal the most damage per point against every target or they miss the mark. We're supposed to be trading our staying power for damage, but as it stands we've gotten nothing out of the deal.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Thu Dec 07 2017, 23:08

@Leninade wrote:

What about immortal gutter rats, that have had to earn their life every day on the streets of Commorragh, hitting harder than a guardsman would be breaking the lore?

But that's the thing - you're saying that gutter rats should be able to hit as hard as a Space Marine wearing Power Armour.

Yes, that would be breaking the lore.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Fri Dec 08 2017, 00:25

Remember that guard can get army wide S4 on their infantry.
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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Fri Dec 08 2017, 04:58

@FuelDrop wrote:
Remember that guard can get army wide S4 on their infantry.

Yeah, because they're big, hulking, Arnold Schwarzenagger meets Rambo. I don't understand this argument for S4. We're elves. We're not as strong as space marines. Shouldn't even be an argument imo.

Is there a reason Wyches can't use poison? Am I missing that part of the fluff?
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Fri Dec 08 2017, 05:57

@FuelDrop wrote:
Remember that guard can get army wide S4 on their infantry.

Technically, so can Wych Cults if they get very lucky on their Combat Drug rolls.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Fri Dec 08 2017, 10:04

What if wyches had something akin to the old Rending rule for genestealers:

Find the gap:
Wyches have an unmatched ability to find the weak-points in their opponent's armour.
Each to-hit roll of 6+ wounds automatically and is resolved at AP-3.

(You could perhaps say this doesn't apply to vehicles, since there's only so much knives can do there.)

Anyway, whenever they roll a 6, their low strength no longer matters. And from turn 3 onwards they become very dangerous indeed.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Fri Dec 08 2017, 10:27

That's similar to what I did in my homebrew 7e codex but I did it on wound rolls and gave them extra attacks.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Fri Dec 08 2017, 11:46

If you give S4 to every melee unit in the game, just to make it powerful, you know what will happen ? Power creep. The ork designer will think "Hmm, Eldars have now access to S4 on units that are half the size of a Ork Boyz, so they definitly deserve S5 to make a difference". Same for Necrons, SM, etc... and then everyone will have S5, probably T5, and we're back at the bottom again.


How can wyches be good ?
- High WS : they have it already. With a succubus, they hit 35/36 attacks. That's very good.
- Lots of attacks : something they lack right now. They really deserve to get 3 attacks stock.
- Ways to drown the enemy in attacks : either an equivalent to "Death to the false emperor". Or even something like : "Dancing with giants : compare the strength of your wyches and of their target. The wyches receives +1 A per point of difference in strength, up to 3". Suddenly, they start looking preeeetty good.
- Special rules. Their special rule needs to be more reliable, and they could use a few more.
- Better equipment.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Fri Dec 08 2017, 12:27

There are so many ways to fix Wyches and GW have somehow managed to avoid every single one of them!

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Fri Dec 08 2017, 12:34

@Mppqlmd wrote:
"Dancing with giants : compare the strength of your wyches and of their target. The wyches receives +1 A per point of difference in strength, up to 3". Suddenly, they start looking preeeetty good.  

I like that one, but we now have wyches with 6 attacks versus a tank (which is not even that stupid considering their speed in the lore).
Unforunately it also means wyches will see a drastic price increase because they are so good (with the example from GW being a power fist wearing character against wyches will have 8 attacks)
But the idea that we get better as our enemy get's more powerfull is really nice. Maybe a rule that allows us to have all the same rerolls that our opponents have.

But as Adhemar mentioned, There are lot's of possible solutions, but it seems GW thinks they don't need them.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Fri Dec 08 2017, 14:15

Alternatively, they could turn the Wyches into a defensive unit, by reworking their special dodging rule.

"Dodge and retaliate : The wyches have a 4+ invulnerable save against attacks made by unit that are engaged in combat with them. When you roll a 6 on an invulnerable save, the unit making the attack suffers a mortal wound".

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Fri Dec 08 2017, 14:28

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Alternatively, they could turn the Wyches into a defensive unit, by reworking their special dodging rule.

"Dodge and retaliate : The wyches have a 4+ invulnerable save against attacks made by unit that are engaged in combat with them. When you roll a 6 on an invulnerable save, the unit making the attack suffers a mortal wound".

Not that it would be bad, but I would raise my eyebrow at wyches being orders of magnitude more effective at retaliating than they are at actually attacking. Razz
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Ubernoob1
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Fri Dec 08 2017, 15:25

@The Shredder wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
Alternatively, they could turn the Wyches into a defensive unit, by reworking their special dodging rule.

"Dodge and retaliate : The wyches have a 4+ invulnerable save against attacks made by unit that are engaged in combat with them. When you roll a 6 on an invulnerable save, the unit making the attack suffers a mortal wound".

Not that it would be bad, but I would raise my eyebrow at wyches being orders of magnitude more effective at retaliating than they are at actually attacking. Razz

While I wouldn't nessisarily disagree from a mechanics standpoint, I would bring up that the whole idea of the wych suit as it's designed that wyches practice dodging and parrying based on the assumption that the enemy will aim for their exposed flesh. So the idea that wyches are more practiced at parry and reposts than actually charging in isn't that farfetched to me. Razz
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Fri Dec 08 2017, 22:40

Hmmm. Imagine if No Escape was a flat 3+ to activate, and if the enemy tried to escape and failed Wyches got a free fight phase against them!
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Fri Dec 08 2017, 22:59

@FuelDrop wrote:
Hmmm. Imagine if No Escape was a flat 3+ to activate, and if the enemy tried to escape and failed Wyches got a free fight phase against them!

I'd honestly rather Wyches lose No Escape entirely and just get better at killing things. The fluff doesn't exactly scream that they need utility.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Fri Dec 08 2017, 23:20

@Burnage wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
Hmmm. Imagine if No Escape was a flat 3+ to activate, and if the enemy tried to escape and failed Wyches got a free fight phase against them!

I'd honestly rather Wyches lose No Escape entirely and just get better at killing things. The fluff doesn't exactly scream that they need utility.

I see No Escape not as a feature, but as a necessity to increase their chances of survival. If Wyches did not have this ability, the enemy could simply fall back and shoot them off with minimal effort.

This way they are at least useful for tying up shooty units. Especially enemies with the fly keyword.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Fri Dec 08 2017, 23:38

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
Hmmm. Imagine if No Escape was a flat 3+ to activate, and if the enemy tried to escape and failed Wyches got a free fight phase against them!

I'd honestly rather Wyches lose No Escape entirely and just get better at killing things. The fluff doesn't exactly scream that they need utility.

I see No Escape not as a feature, but as a necessity to increase their chances of survival. If Wyches did not have this ability, the enemy could simply fall back and shoot them off with minimal effort.

This way they are at least useful for tying up shooty units. Especially enemies with the fly keyword.

It is also one of the only unique special rules in our index...
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Sat Dec 09 2017, 01:10

@FuelDrop wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
Hmmm. Imagine if No Escape was a flat 3+ to activate, and if the enemy tried to escape and failed Wyches got a free fight phase against them!

I'd honestly rather Wyches lose No Escape entirely and just get better at killing things. The fluff doesn't exactly scream that they need utility.

I see No Escape not as a feature, but as a necessity to increase their chances of survival. If Wyches did not have this ability, the enemy could simply fall back and shoot them off with minimal effort.

This way they are at least useful for tying up shooty units. Especially enemies with the fly keyword.

It is also one of the only unique special rules in our index...

Yes it is one of the only unique special rules, but I'm kinda with Burnage on this one, the last thing we need is more variability. We need special rules that are dependable.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Sat Dec 09 2017, 01:21

@SushiBoy013 wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
Hmmm. Imagine if No Escape was a flat 3+ to activate, and if the enemy tried to escape and failed Wyches got a free fight phase against them!

I'd honestly rather Wyches lose No Escape entirely and just get better at killing things. The fluff doesn't exactly scream that they need utility.

I see No Escape not as a feature, but as a necessity to increase their chances of survival. If Wyches did not have this ability, the enemy could simply fall back and shoot them off with minimal effort.

This way they are at least useful for tying up shooty units. Especially enemies with the fly keyword.

It is also one of the only unique special rules in our index...

Yes it is one of the only unique special rules, but I'm kinda with Burnage on this one, the last thing we need is more variability. We need special rules that are dependable.
'

I didn't say it was a GOOD rule, just that it is one of the few bits of flavor we have left...
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SushiBoy013
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Sat Dec 09 2017, 01:25

@FuelDrop wrote:
@SushiBoy013 wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
Hmmm. Imagine if No Escape was a flat 3+ to activate, and if the enemy tried to escape and failed Wyches got a free fight phase against them!

I'd honestly rather Wyches lose No Escape entirely and just get better at killing things. The fluff doesn't exactly scream that they need utility.

I see No Escape not as a feature, but as a necessity to increase their chances of survival. If Wyches did not have this ability, the enemy could simply fall back and shoot them off with minimal effort.

This way they are at least useful for tying up shooty units. Especially enemies with the fly keyword.

It is also one of the only unique special rules in our index...

Yes it is one of the only unique special rules, but I'm kinda with Burnage on this one, the last thing we need is more variability. We need special rules that are dependable.
'

I didn't say it was a GOOD rule, just that it is one of the few bits of flavor we have left...

Yeah, I get it for sure...here is to hoping our codex will not disappoint in establishing us as competitive and maybe even a little fluffy.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Sat Dec 09 2017, 01:33

Or they could strip away the few bits of flavor and wargear that they haven't yet killed.

If we end up with a codex with only Darklances and splinter rifles as weapon options, I wouldn't even be surprised anymore.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Sat Dec 09 2017, 09:35

One thing I find disappointing is that the Shardnet (& Impaler) doesn't give any bonus to No Escape.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Improved AP vs. higher S   Sat Dec 09 2017, 12:20

@The Shredder wrote:
One thing I find disappointing is that the Shardnet (& Impaler) doesn't give any bonus to No Escape.

Shardnet ? What are you talking about ?

Considering that the "Shardnet and Impaler" and the "Impaler" have the same profiles, here is a small scene featuring 2 wyches :


"- Have you by any chance kept up with your Shardnet play ?
- I ... I pawned that thing years ago
- You hooked a Shardnet ?
- Yup
- Well you were probably right... it wasn't particularly useful"

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