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RedRegicide
Wych
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PostSubject: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Tue Nov 28 2017, 23:46

All in the description. Is a 1 an auto fail or is it changed to a 2?

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Wed Nov 29 2017, 00:07

A physical roll of a 1 is always a fail. So a 1+ weapon skill attack will still fail on a roll of a 1. It just absorbs the first negative to hit, for example Howling Banshees.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Wed Nov 29 2017, 00:10

This is just off the top of my head at the moment but a dice roll of 1 is an auto fail, regardless of WS. If however you end up with a modified result of 1 and you have a 1+WS I think that will still hit.

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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Wed Nov 29 2017, 00:58

These dice rules are really weird. Thanks guys!

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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Thu Nov 30 2017, 03:06

Sorry Count, run that by me again?

rolling a natural 1 is an auto fail, but should you roll a 2 and you have a -1 modifier and 1+ WS you're saying that it will still hit?

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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Thu Nov 30 2017, 07:03

If I use it correctly, (but it is a little bit ambigous how it is worded) I use the following steps:

1) Roll dice
2) Roll rerolls
3) remove 1s
4) adjust dice with modifiers
5) compare with ws
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Thu Nov 30 2017, 09:00

@Barrywise wrote:
Sorry Count, run that by me again?

rolling a natural 1 is an auto fail, but should you roll a 2 and you have a -1 modifier and 1+ WS you're saying that it will still hit?

That's how it reads to me. But until GW get their heads around the difference between rolls and results then who knows for sure?

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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Thu Nov 30 2017, 14:28

@Barrywise wrote:
Sorry Count, run that by me again?

rolling a natural 1 is an auto fail, but should you roll a 2 and you have a -1 modifier and 1+ WS you're saying that it will still hit?

The only thing that would prevent it is if a model can't have a WS 1+. If it can, yes, it would hit.
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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Fri Dec 01 2017, 02:32

Nope - a modified one still misses - modifiers affect the dice, not the target number... So rolling a 2 and then having -1 means you actually rolled a 1... Which always misses

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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Fri Dec 01 2017, 07:22

@ massaen
So according to you a natural one is not a mis if you have a +1 modifier because then the dice is a 2?
But the rule sais irrespective of modifiers.
A -1 is as good a modifier as a +1 which should not matter in my mind.


Last edited by |Meavar on Fri Dec 01 2017, 12:29; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Fri Dec 01 2017, 09:30

I also play it like Massaen, nowhere in the rules is anything written about a natural roll. At least i have not found anything.

A faq even explicitly says, that effects of rolls come after modifiers. The example used is a roll of 1 kills the model, when firing a overheated plasma weapon. I don't see any evidence that the rule: "a roll of 1 fails" is treated differently.

So +1 WS is useless on a succubus, in my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Fri Dec 01 2017, 09:55

This gets a bit ambiguous because of the rules use the terminology 'roll of 1' to mean before and after modifiers.

In both the Hit Roll and Wound Roll sections on page 181, the rules say:
"A roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers that may apply"

In that context they presumably mean a natural 1 because it would apply irrespective of any modifiers.

Then there was the plasma overheating which explained the example Massaen has given is a 'roll of 1', which means after modifiers.

The roll of 1 issue could removed by distinguishing a roll and a result, but that isn't the way the rule has been written.

I would interpret it as:
1) A natural roll of 1 fails because of the irrespective of any modifiers rule on p181
2) A modified roll of 1 fails because of the plasma example given in the FAQ labelling that a 'roll of 1'

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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Fri Dec 01 2017, 10:59

As I said earlier, until GW learns the difference between rolls and results then we really have no clue how these bloody rules are supposed to work.

In the FAQ question directly before the one that says about the plasma issue, they actually say "Comparing the final results to the model’s Ballistic Skill, only one shot hits the target". If we apply the same process on this occasion and compare the final results to the model’s Weapon Skill (1+), we actually hit the target and we have not rolled a 1.

AAAAARRRGGHHHHH!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Fri Dec 01 2017, 11:45

You are right, i missed the part about the modifiers.
A little comment at the side, i have the german rules, and this translation writes about the result of the roll, not the roll. Both would have been possible in german, but they used result, maybe this false(?) translation has caused my interpretation.
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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Fri Dec 01 2017, 17:23

Yeah, I always viewed it that the "roll" is the result shown on the die. the "natural roll" as y'all have mentioned.

The result is the final value based on the natural dice roll and the modifiers affecting the die. so...
Result =  Roll +/- Modifers

EDIT: Ok, so looking at the Battle Primer right now, in the example battle that they have in the back half, they clearly state:

" The Space Marine player then rolls a 3 for their saving throw, but must subtract 1 from the roll because the krak grenade has an AP characteristic of -1. The final result of 2 fails to protect the Space Marines."

so they actually have defined the difference between roll and result...

And I'm trying to find that FAQ now Count, Which one are you looking at? But based off of the rules you posted, WHAT THE HECK!!! That's such an easy fix.

I'm Pisssed.  Evil or Very Mad

it should read: "Apply the modifier before seeing if it will activate with any results of 1 or less causing the mortal wound/model to be slain. For example, if you have a -1 to hit, then it will activate on a roll of a 1 or a 2, as the result would be a 1 or less."

and
"Yes. However, all rolls of 1 will still fail to hit."

That's bloody easy! There's physical proof and evidence of a player having rolled a 1 on the die, right there on the table. Dungeons and Dragons figured this out with their "natural rolls" of 20 and 1 years ago. If you roll the die and it's a 20, no matter how crazy difficult it is, no matter if you have -infinity modifier, you just rolled a critical success. On the flip side, if you roll a 1, it doesn't matter if your level 10 thief has a +10 modifier to get a final result of 11, you just crit failed and there's no going back. That's why in 2nd or 3rd edition they added Fate Points so that your hero has a chance to fix their roll of a 1 when disarming a nuke. Because failure would mean a team wipe and ruining the fun. That's probably why GW added the Fate Point equivalent of Command Points, for the exact same reason.
GAHHH
/endrant



*quick sidenote* I find it interesting that so many people complain about how the Wych Cult HQ aura only reroll's 1's instead of all misses. With the new warlord trait of 3 hits on the hit roll of a 6, having a weapon skill of 3+ reroll misses ends up being better than a 2+ reroll 1's because it allows you more chances to roll that juicy 6. so Turn 3 +1 WS would actually be detrimental instead of helpful. In any other occasion, yes the reroll all would be better. But I must admit I am impressed by GW's foresight on this. UNLESS they realized that +1 WS would give her a 1+ WS (therefore you "dont miss" no reroll misses) and that allowing you to reroll 1's allows you a better chance to get that juicy 6.

I'm probably reading waaay too deep into this. The Conspiracies!!! Aliens!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Fri Dec 01 2017, 19:41

He is talking about the Designers' commenary.

But i just realized the second question on the second page is the answer. Basically it says a rule that triggers on a specific roll is triggered by the result after modifiers, the only exceptions are rules that explicitly state something like before modifiers are applied.

So i stand corrected, 1s after modifiers don't automatically fail. This actually means a succubus with WS 1+ is immune to any negative hit modifier, as another rule declares, that 1 is the lowest value any roll can be modified to.
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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Fri Dec 01 2017, 19:50

Ah thank you! I found a link to the designers commentary but the link had expired or they had switched it to somewhere else.

And actually...That's a very insightful point you've made. That means the -1 modifier on the Glaive doesn't actually affect the Succubus if she takes the WS drug to get to WS 1+. Even if you do roll a 1, you can reroll it with her aura ability, which means, it's still a 2+ rerollable to hit with the WS drug.

My Dear Watson, You've Cracked the Case!

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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Sat Dec 02 2017, 02:10

If you have ws1+ it still misses on a 1 and if you roll a 2 it's modified down to a 1 by the glaive... Which we know always fails...

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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Sat Dec 02 2017, 05:19

BOI
GW specified the difference between result and roll in the battle primer but failed to do so anywhere else. As such, the dice and any modifiers to it shall be referred to as the “roll”

The rules states “a roll of 1, irrespective of any modifiers.” AS SOON AS YOU APPLY A MODIFIER. The rule no longer applies. The roll is now respective of modifiers.

Amd here’s a direct quote:
1. Hit Roll: Each time a model makes an attack, roll a dice. If the roll is equal to or greater than the attacking model’s Ballistic Skill characteristic, then it scores a hit with the weapon it is using. If not, the attack fails and the attack sequence ends. A roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifers that may apply.

Ballistic Skill and Weapon Skill are swappable in this rule.

If I remember correctly, and I might go and find the actual quotes tomorrow, abilities/stats have a minimum value of 1 or 0, and don’t have a maximum value compared to last edition where it was Toughness 10 and AV of 14.

As such, it is possible to get a WS of 1+. Using the hit roll rule that I stated above and the fact that it is possible to get a WS of 1+, therefore as long as the final roll value matches that of the WS in question, (a 1 or higher in this case) then the hit is a success.

So yes, a dice roll of a 2, with a -1 modifier is still a hit when the attacker has a WS of 1+

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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Sat Jan 20 2018, 18:26

So if Drazhar adds +1 to the roll, how does it work out?
I got the feeling it is (almost) pointless from 3rd turn on. Or they would always hit, which I don't think so following the arguments above correctly.

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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Sat Jan 20 2018, 19:40

Drazhar gives +1 to friendly Incubi, so doesn't interact with Serpentine Combat Drugs.

From turn 1, Incubi with Drazhar's buff would hit on a roll of 2+, and on turn 3 they would still hit on a roll of 2+ because a roll of 1 is a miss. Likewise, Drazhar's buff to himself doesn't increase his hit chances, as even from turn 1 he hits on a 2+ and the hit buff doesn't stop a roll of 1 being a miss.

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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Sat Jan 20 2018, 20:11

ok, thx for clarifying.

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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Sat Feb 10 2018, 00:24

Another question occured around this topic, the Warlord trait Blood dancer and the 3rd power from Pain ability(flensing fury); I read it as follows: I am using Lelith with Adrenalight, I have 6 attacks with her knives and 2 attacks with her mane, I reroll all 1s and I might get a result of 2,3,4,5,6 -2,6 but I add +1 so it will turn into 3,4,5,6,7 -3,7 which would mean I get 4 times a single hit and 3 times a triple hit in sum 13 hits, correct?

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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Sat Feb 10 2018, 07:17

How do you roll a -2?

Otherwise, yes that looks correct - so you would get 13 hits from those rolls.

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PostSubject: Re: Add +1 to hit vs +1 WS (Serpentine)   Sat Feb 10 2018, 09:20

@Kantalla wrote:
How do you roll a -2?

Otherwise, yes that looks correct - so you would get 13 hits from those rolls.

Not minus two, dash two. Using it as notation for the range of results possible, 2 to 6, 3 to 7.

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