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 Relic and Warlord traits

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FuelDrop
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Tue Dec 05 2017, 00:39

Troupemaster is cheaper and better. Point for point she is bad in her class.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Tue Dec 05 2017, 02:43

@FuelDrop wrote:
Troupemaster is cheaper and better. Point for point she is bad in her class.

The Succubus has two main problems, the way I see it; A4 and the Archite Glaive being mandatory, thus getting factored into her points cost.

Give her five attacks default, let her take a splinter pistol and agoniser, drop her to ~60 points total - and bam, she's in a much better spot. Maybe not anything to write home about but not quite in her current "why is our melee-centric HQ the worst at melee?" territory.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Tue Dec 05 2017, 04:04

Yeah, why do our melee focused characters have the lowest base attacks? This includes 2 of our named special characters.
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Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Tue Dec 05 2017, 07:10

I say give her 6-8 attacks, a succubus should be roughly equavalent to an solitair in my mind?
Make her also around 100 points a monster in melee, missing the blitz and slightly worse mobility but instead the current aura should be ok.
It also helps differentiate her from the archon (who is and should stay cheaper), who is at heart a political mastermind who is good at fighting, compared to the combat master/mistress who has some political ability.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Tue Dec 05 2017, 20:19

Well in all honesty (fluffwise) the succubus and solitaire or on a fighting level completely their own... The little bit of fluff I dug up on this points to a tradition where a solitaire and succubus would fight to the death, the one I read the solitaire won, but just barely ... The fight had already gone on for days, I believe I really wanna find that fluff again, but there have been as many succubus winners of that tradition as there have been solitaires ... So ... We can all wonder why they most certainly aren't equal right now ....
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Tue Dec 05 2017, 22:33

Having the Succubus able to go toe to toe with a solitaire, and Lilith able to legit outclass a solitaire, is something I can get behind.
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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Wed Dec 06 2017, 01:10

@Archon_91 wrote:
Well in all honesty (fluffwise) the succubus and solitaire or on a fighting level completely their own... The little bit of fluff I dug up on this points to a tradition where a solitaire and succubus would fight to the death, the one I read the solitaire won, but just barely ... The fight had already gone on for days, I believe I really wanna find that fluff again, but there have been as many succubus winners of that tradition as there have been solitaires ... So  ... We can all wonder why they most certainly aren't equal right now ....


Oh man sign me up.

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Wed Dec 06 2017, 02:18

I'm gonna be that guy, Blood Dancer gives the chance to have 7 attacks on the succubus turn 3+

Still sucks with the glaive though. Makes sense if it's big and unwieldly I guess...

Per the usual, I hope everything will be fixed with the codex. If not, it's nothing different for us.

The balance between fluff and gameplay is always so weird.

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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Wed Dec 06 2017, 07:15

@Barrywise wrote:

The balance between fluff and gameplay is always so weird.

I agree initially it looks weird and way off, but actually it is not that bad.
Balance on a fluff level means it is often impossible to compare the superhumans to humans. But against things that are roughly equeavalent it should work out similarly. Orks and space marines are both known for surviving wounds that would kill humans and crushing skulls in their fists. Being much better in melee then your normal guardsman (3+ws s&t 4) since while there is some discrepancy in the fluff they are not that far appart.

Compare something to something much weaker or stronger and it will fall apart because of gameplay issues. Comparing it to something loreways roughly equal and it should be roughly equal in game.
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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Thu Dec 07 2017, 12:36

If it is truly that big and unwieldy then a trained combatant like a Succubus wouldn't use it. Succubi aren't beatsticks. They are warrior-surgeons. If the thing twirled around like Darth Maul's double-ended light saber then I'd buy it.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Thu Dec 07 2017, 20:20

In all honesty that's what it should do, twirl around like Darth mauls saber ... The design of the archite glaive reminds me a lot of the naginata ... A pole arm commonly used by the samurai class of Japan later adopted as the weapon of choice for standard troops (makes sense as the dark eldar society, to me, feels a bit like feudal Japan) ... And very often used by battle monks ... It was the weapon of choice also for the wives of the samurai who were expected to defend the home while the husband was away, so not exactly a heavy weapon, easily wield-able with one or two hands it was meant to keep enemies at a distance, it was heavier than a katana but really it barely hindered or slowed the movements of the wielder ... Especially in the hands of a trained master (succubus) this weapon was never a hindrance and really only served as an extension to the masters blade. ... Sorry a small rant
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Fri Dec 08 2017, 01:43

Oh you mean like this?



Also, slight side note, it would be cool if they made longer weapons like whips and spears be able to hit from like 2" away. Not sure how you'd make that work in terms of being within 1" to be locked in combat though

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Fri Dec 08 2017, 20:28

Yep, pretty much exactly like that ... And she didn't look hindered at all did she? On a side note ... >.> The only thing I could think of while watching that was that must be what a battle between a succubus and a solitaire must look like ... Only faster, flashier, and more deadly ... Also a lot longer ... And on a side note ... Give is something like the singing spears where they have a 6" profile and a melee profile
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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Sat Dec 09 2017, 14:34

I'm kinda feeling this vibe for a succubus with an archite glaive. It's how I imagine a fight vs a space marine. Minus the final head squashing, obviously.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW70rfou1X8

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WildCandy
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Mon Dec 11 2017, 10:57

Take Agonizer on Succubi, it'll work ok with the WT? It makes her still better, but not op. How often you get to use the pistol on her anyway? After few turns, you're exploding with 5+ to hit or can use the glaive for suitable targets. It's not optimal by far. I'd expect in the codex the glaive to get same handling as Howling banshee executioner and loss something str or ap and hit normally. Then thou the agonizer could be still better option Neutral
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Mon Dec 11 2017, 12:01

Why on earth would the glaive need to sacrifice something in order to lose the -1 to hit? Compare to some of the other weapons available to codex armies and frankly it's a joke. Even those melee specialists the Astra Militarum have 2 weapons that knock spots off the Archite Glaive (albeit they are relics).

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WildCandy
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Mon Dec 11 2017, 12:03

I do not agree it should lose anything, but I would not be surprised if that happened for the sake of removing the -1 to hit from it.
On the other hand Striking scorpions claw didn't lose anything while it got price drop and they removed the -1 to hit from it.
So one can hope Smile
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Tue Dec 12 2017, 02:00

Given the warlord trait I would have to hope the -1 disappears.

The Craftworlders have a Glaive weapon and it has -1 to hit too, so wouldn't be surprised if it stays in after the Codex is released. Their one gives more strength and does more damage too so something really needs to shift to make our version reasonably comparable.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Tue Dec 12 2017, 02:25

I do wanna know why the Succubus gets a 1 damage glaive with a bigger blade than the 2 damage hellion glaive...
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Tue Dec 12 2017, 19:51

The glaive the succubus is using doesn't have two blades on it, so naturally following gw logic that means it only does one damage where as the two bladed glaives of the hellions can naturally do two damage ... One per blade ...
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Tue Dec 12 2017, 21:27

@Archon_91 wrote:
The glaive the succubus is using doesn't have two blades on it, so naturally following gw logic that means it only does one damage where as the two bladed glaives of the hellions can naturally do two damage ... One per blade ...

I just assumed that the added momentum of being on a skyboard was the source of the extra damage.

That said, 1 dmg for the glaive still makes no sense, especially if it's "unwieldy".
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Tue Dec 12 2017, 21:54

@krayd wrote:
@Archon_91 wrote:
The glaive the succubus is using doesn't have two blades on it, so naturally following gw logic that means it only does one damage where as the two bladed glaives of the hellions can naturally do two damage ... One per blade ...

I just assumed that the added momentum of being on a skyboard was the source of the extra damage.

That said, 1 dmg for the glaive still makes no sense, especially if it's "unwieldy".

They could not make the damage any lower. They did try for "roll a d6, on a 5+ this weapon does 1 damage", but that would be a special rule for DE and they didn't want that.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Wed Dec 13 2017, 04:46

Quote :
They did try for "roll a d6, on a 5+ this weapon does 1 damage", but that would be a special rule for DE and they didn't want that.

That would be wayyyy too powerful.
Are you trying to make the Dark Eldar broken ??

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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Thu Dec 14 2017, 04:00

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
They did try for "roll a d6, on a 5+ this weapon does 1 damage", but that would be a special rule for DE and they didn't want that.

That would be wayyyy too powerful.
Are you trying to make the Dark Eldar broken ??

yeah calm down mate
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Relic and Warlord traits   Fri Dec 15 2017, 05:08

wait, does 1 damage straight up, like Mortal Wounds?

Or like, on a 5+ the weapon is Damage:1 instead of being Damage:0

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