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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Thu Nov 30 2017, 23:21

@Tzelok wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Actually, in a competitive way, the only thing that I should deepstrike is Lelith.

DE needs to have nearly all the points deployed in the first turn. Right now, a lot of lists can make a deadly alpha strike with nearly all the army. We can handle it, but we need nearly all our choices on the ground. Consider that we normally deploy more units than the opponet, so being second player is not so rare for us.

So...if you'll DS any big unit, you're basically play the first turn of the game with like 1600/1700 vs 2000. It's pretty bad for us.
And if you think to DS into turn 2-3, well, things will get a terrible way..

I respectfully disagree - I play 1-2 tournaments a year so I can't claim to be a top tier tourney player, but my view is that I'm relatively safe from being shot off the board. In the list I posted, 3 ravagers, 1 venom, an Archon, and 4 medusae would need to be killed for me to auto-lose.

Even against the hardest lists i've faced in tourneys, I usually haven't lost more than 3 raiders/ravagers in turn 1, and the amount of scenery makes a huge difference - I am often able to hide my venom out of LOS to prevent getting alpha striked to oblivion.

While I get what your saying with needing "all your forces" doing things right away to win, I don't think DE is designed to really match that strategy - we suck at attrition, we die in droves. The games i've won have all been about decisively striking the right target at the right time.

With as many Dark lances as I have (I am a fan of redundancy) I am confident that I can take the biggest armoured threats off the table before losing my AT abilities. Scourges would come down turn 1, giving me yet another unit that they would need to decimate before I auto-lose.

The biggest tactical advantage of having the big blobs in reserve isn't really the impact they'll have when they come down (although I do see that as a huge positive) - It's messing with your opponents head. With the speed our lists can have, I feel that we are in a good place to capitalize on mistakes or hesitation (ie: spreading out their entire force? pick the more secluded targets and stay out of range/los of 80% of their army)

That being said, it looks like I am on for gaming Friday with my friend (who plays more tournament games than I do and often places top 5) so I'll have a better idea of how it will work once I've run it at least once - for now this is all theory.

Despite the warlord trait, I don't think Lelith (or any of our special characters tbh) is worth the points, nor do I really see her as a great "objective holder" - she's not THAT hard to kill.

But of course, this is all just my opinion Smile

I tried this aproach yesterday against a GK alpha strike.

The only results was that he litterally doesn't care about 2x20 Wyches. He just goes straight on, shooted something like 120 bolters and crushed half of my army. Then Wyches appears...but it was just turn 1. Without them, he should be able to simply wipe me out in turn 2.
And there's no LoS matter here, the table cannot prevent you from a fully DS army+StormRavens. He just keeped 3 Razorback in the back, 1 Teleport with a Pagk, another one in DS, Paladins in DS, Draigo in DS, the rest into the Storm.
He got the +1 to begin, he win the roll.


That's all folks.

PS: yes I know that we can build a castle in the corner against those strategies, but that army doesn't even care about the target. He just shoot everything.

So.basically I played without 400 points.


I agree with you. I'm not talking about any attriction strategy. We need to hit hard...but what I am saying is to staying strong only in the 1 round of the game. Normally, we are able to hit back harder than the opponent...if we keep our army in the table.
I mean, in 420 point I bring 2 more Venoms with 2x5 Trueborns w/4 blasters.
Or nearly 3 Venoms with Kabals.
Or Scourges, more Ravagers and so on...
We feel the lack of those points against SOME matches. I'm not saying that this happens all the time: some armies are not able to shoot so much, some others just need to advance, some others to keep positioning...
..but a few ones can do that play. And if I'm going in a tournament, I can't risk myself hoping in any slalom :-/

But even in casual games I normally like to list something able to manage against any enemy. But right now, the body count is something that I can't ignore.
Hope there'll be something in the new codex to bypass this thought (like some 1st turn stratagems, or just the pfp table reorganization, like: 6+ save basic, 1 turn reroll the charge, 2 turn +1 to hit, 3 turn fearlessness etc. Right now, wh40k is played in the first and second turn mostly, there's a large amount of alpha strike, but our pfp only works well on turn 3. Pretty disappointing right now).
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Fri Dec 01 2017, 01:08

I've considered bringing a large unit of grots with haemonculus in on turn two or three. Haven't tried it yet. I thought about using wracks as well. Not sure which would really be better.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Fri Dec 01 2017, 01:18

Edit: Never mind this.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Fri Dec 01 2017, 01:36

Assuming your attacking a castled enemy (very common due to auras) is it plausible to advance all your transports first turn, drop in hammy and grots with WW 9" from enemies but also within 6" of your boats to give them hammy buff? You can attempt the charge at a low risk unit (low number of shots) and if you fail, your hammy is in postion to buff your transports for the next round of shooting and your distraction carnifex is in place

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Fri Dec 01 2017, 14:44

Plausible? Sure, on some deployment maps, with the more aggressive castle armies. Guard are gonna turtle up in the back so you won't make it turn 1, while something like Dark Angels is gonna get in your grill.

On the topic of Webway Distraction Carnifex, do you expect a scary looking Grotesque or Talos drop to hold up against something with actual output, like Mandrakes or Clawed Fiends? At competitive play levels, people will probably have a general idea of what's good and what's not in most armies, or can look at the stats and headmath it. And it'll only fool your friends once. Personally I'm leaning towards something with decent output that my opponent can't just ignore and take minimal losses.

I've been looking at what to drop. Did some quick math on the best candidates off the top of my head. I used GEQ as a base comparison since most of the time there's bubble wrap in a list. Below, I included Beastmaster output rerolls, and points in the comparison.

Mandrakes 190 pts / 15.85 wounds = 11.99 ppw
Khymerae + BeastMaster 180 pts / 15.66 wounds = 11.49 ppw
Clawed Fiends + BeastMaster 252 pts / 23.66 wounds = 10.65 ppw

For me, this means Khymerae are out. Why drop Khymerae and a Beastmaster for 3 CP when I can drop Mandrakes and get the same 5++ and -1 to hit?

Clawed Fiends are another story. That 2 damage means I can go after Obliterators, TEQs, Primaris, and could be a good counter unit when Blood/Dark Angels and 1ksons come out, as I imagine we'll see more Terminator drops.

I also looked at Wracks for ObSec, but with only 10 per unit, I'm having a hard time seeing them having enough staying power to really do anything against a turtle army. And if I'm thinking of dropping them on some objective that's not inside the opponent's bubble wrap and camping it, why not just do that with Kabs in a Venom?


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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Fri Dec 01 2017, 15:05

I am definitely a fan of mandrakes. The more we look at it the less Webway seems plausible.
Okay Tarpit is out.
Beasts are out.
Objective secured is out
Trueborn, 4 blaster 2 lance? usable?
Way to get grotesques up board without buying a raider?
Drop in assassin squad of incubi or a character?

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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Fri Dec 01 2017, 15:45

Why are beasts out? Clawed Fiends are still good output - better ppw on GEQ than Mandrakes and have a lot of flexibility to go after multi-wound models too like Oblits, Termies, Helbasters. Only downsides are reliance on the charge and they're not as tough.

I dunno about Trueborn, that's a flimsy unit. You'll have to drop within 18" for Blasters, which means they 100% get demolished on opponent turn. I dunno why you wouldn't opt for Lance Scourge instead.

Incubi assasination unit? I'm pretty sure Clawed Fiends still win out against those targets offensively.

Why would you even want to get Grots up the board? Not good output, decent toughness so you can camp objectives but with no ObSec, you may as well go Wracks supported by a Haemy for that. Plus the Wracks can take Ossefactors to shoot. And the only time you'd want ObSec Webway over ObSec in a transport is if your enemy has screened said objective with infantry. That's pretty niche and we can do that without the points of Webway units and their CP expenditure.

The only viable option I see now is Clawed Fiends. Comparable against GEQs if you need it, but also more flexibility. I'll probably see if I can work both Clawed Fiends and Mandrakes into my list so I have nasty bubble wrap popping, and the flexibilty of the Fiends as well.

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Fri Dec 01 2017, 15:58

Clawed fiends don’t get PFP so charging them is difficult, that’s why I thought beasts were out.

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Fri Dec 01 2017, 16:04

@Chippen wrote:
Why are beasts out? Clawed Fiends are still good output - better ppw on GEQ than Mandrakes and have a lot of flexibility to go after multi-wound models too like Oblits, Termies, Helbasters. Only downsides are reliance on the charge and they're not as tough.

I dunno about Trueborn, that's a flimsy unit. You'll have to drop within 18" for Blasters, which means they 100% get demolished on opponent turn. I dunno why you wouldn't opt for Lance Scourge instead.

Incubi assasination unit? I'm pretty sure Clawed Fiends still win out against those targets offensively.

Why would you even want to get Grots up the board? Not good output, decent toughness so you can camp objectives but with no ObSec, you may as well go Wracks supported by a Haemy for that. Plus the Wracks can take Ossefactors to shoot. And the only time you'd want ObSec Webway over ObSec in a transport is if your enemy has screened said objective with infantry. That's pretty niche and we can do that without the points of Webway units and their CP expenditure.

The only viable option I see now is Clawed Fiends. Comparable against GEQs if you need it, but also more flexibility. I'll probably see if I can work both Clawed Fiends and Mandrakes into my list so I have nasty bubble wrap popping, and the flexibilty of the Fiends as well.

Grotesques are one of the few units that can take reasonable punishment and don't instantly start to crumble (which likely happens with a failed charge). When together with a Haemonculus, T6 is a huge boon and they are one of the few units who benefit most from the Coven warlord trait.

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Fri Dec 01 2017, 16:08

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@Chippen wrote:
Why are beasts out? Clawed Fiends are still good output - better ppw on GEQ than Mandrakes and have a lot of flexibility to go after multi-wound models too like Oblits, Termies, Helbasters. Only downsides are reliance on the charge and they're not as tough.

I dunno about Trueborn, that's a flimsy unit. You'll have to drop within 18" for Blasters, which means they 100% get demolished on opponent turn. I dunno why you wouldn't opt for Lance Scourge instead.

Incubi assasination unit? I'm pretty sure Clawed Fiends still win out against those targets offensively.

Why would you even want to get Grots up the board? Not good output, decent toughness so you can camp objectives but with no ObSec, you may as well go Wracks supported by a Haemy for that. Plus the Wracks can take Ossefactors to shoot. And the only time you'd want ObSec Webway over ObSec in a transport is if your enemy has screened said objective with infantry. That's pretty niche and we can do that without the points of Webway units and their CP expenditure.

The only viable option I see now is Clawed Fiends. Comparable against GEQs if you need it, but also more flexibility. I'll probably see if I can work both Clawed Fiends and Mandrakes into my list so I have nasty bubble wrap popping, and the flexibilty of the Fiends as well.

Grotesques are one of the few units that can take reasonable punishment and don't instantly start to crumble (which likely happens with a failed charge). When together with a Haemonculus, T6 is a huge boon and they are one of the few units who benefit most from the Coven warlord trait.

I'm apparently doing a good job of misinterpreting our new Warlord traits, so I need to ask - I thought the Coven trait only healed D3 wounds on the Warlord. Is this not the case?
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Fri Dec 01 2017, 16:09

We can heal anybody’s wounds or just the warlords?

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Fri Dec 01 2017, 16:26

@The Strange Dark One wrote:


Grotesques are one of the few units that can take reasonable punishment and don't instantly start to crumble (which likely happens with a failed charge). When together with a Haemonculus, T6 is a huge boon and they are one of the few units who benefit most from the Coven warlord trait.

I get that, staying power seems nice. On the other hand, why do you want the Grots up in opponent's face in the first place? They aren't particularly dangerous - 204 points of Grots kill like 10 GEQs a turn, so you're essentially just keeping a bubble wrap unit in close combat. I don't see what Grots actually do, because just looking scary isn't going to hold up at a competitive level, or even a second time in a friendly environment.

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Fri Dec 01 2017, 16:55

You can heal just the warlords.

Best unit, in my opinion, for webway is 20 hellions.
Drop in, shoot 40 shots at something squishy, and charge something else with +1 A drug for toughness 1-7, +1 str drug for 8-9. With 2 wounds each hit, Hellions are a serious threat to enemy flyers, tanks, and artillery.

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Fri Dec 01 2017, 17:22

@Skulnbonz wrote:
You can heal just the warlords.

Best unit, in my opinion, for webway is 20 hellions.
Drop in, shoot 40 shots at something squishy, and charge something else with +1 A drug for toughness 1-7, +1 str drug for 8-9.  With 2 wounds each hit, Hellions are a serious threat to enemy flyers, tanks, and artillery.

That’s a good point, gets the benefit of shooting, has PFP, large numbers for objectives, and hit and run means you can engage screen then leave it next turn with no penalty

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Fri Dec 01 2017, 22:14

Hellions definitely sound good for pure damage output, but at 170pts for 10 they're pretty expensive compared to other options and very fragile being only T3 with a 5+ save.

I stand by Wyches for locking down units: at 106pts for 10 with weapons they're cheaper, much more survivable with a 4++ in combat, and have the ability to prevent enemy infantry falling back with a 7/12 chance.

If wyches multi-charge several units only one needs to fail the fall-back roll off to make you immune to shooting in their turn. The chance of that is:
1 unit = 7/12 = 58%
2 units = 1 - (5/12 * 5/12) = 82%
3 units = 1 - (5/12 * 5/12 * 5/12) = 92%
So all they need to do is manage to charge say 2 infantry units and a character, and not only are they locked down for at least one turn, but you're immune to shooting back.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Fri Dec 01 2017, 22:29

The hard part is succeeding the charge and surviving the overwatch.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Fri Dec 01 2017, 22:52

This is where our lack of variety with shooty infantry comes into play. we cannot use this to deep strike melta, or plasma equivalent, or even hard core anti infantry like heavy bolters or the like. We can deep strike Shredders or Blasters (AKA just Blasters), with either Splinter Cannons or Dark Lances as support (AKA just Dark Lances).

Space Marines could use this (and use drop pods to do this) to deploy powerful short ranged weapons like plasma, grav, melta, and lots of them exactly where needed. A 10 man sturnguard squad with combi weapons dropping in is a terrifying sight to behold. A squad of trueborn? not on the same level. Less variety of weapons, and less of them.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Fri Dec 01 2017, 23:06

Why 7/12 for the 'No Escape'? Its a roll off, so you re roll ties until someone wins right? Or do you only re roll once?

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Fri Dec 01 2017, 23:11

No Escape specifies they have to BEAT you in a roll off, if it's a tie then we win.

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Fri Dec 01 2017, 23:21

@Tzelok wrote:
No Escape specifies they have to BEAT you in a roll off, if it's a tie then we win.

I think I read somewhere that in a roll off, when it's a tie, you reroll until a winner is found. But with that many designer comments, FAQ, chapter approved.... I can't recall where.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Fri Dec 01 2017, 23:27

I just read the FAQ and it wasn’t in there. The index is pretty clear they only get to fall back if they win the roll off.

I’ll have chapter approved in my hands tomorrow so I’ll update if it does say that, but I haven’t seen it anywhere

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Sat Dec 02 2017, 00:13

It’s in the rule book that you keep re rolling, it’s a designer note

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Sun Dec 03 2017, 16:07

It's in the rule book in the section dealing with roll offs. It specifically says to continue re-rolling until one person rolls higher.

That being said I wouldn't discard 2 squads of 20 kaballites as a forlorn hope. 80 poison shots kills about half their point value in MEQ the turn they come down. With some smart shooting and grenade launchers, you can really put a dent in most of the scary units.

My idea is to have 2 squads of 20 kaballites, 10 mandrakes. 50 wounds on the enemies back line isn't easy to deal with. They're going to take a decent amount of fire that might otherwise shoot the stuff you care about.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Mon Dec 04 2017, 18:29

Just wanted to report back - wwp isn’t an issue because part of your army is in reserve, but I will no longer be using it because
A) didn’t realize no escape made you reroll ties
B) the likelihood of failing the charge is too great

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Mon Dec 04 2017, 21:15

Edit: Found the rule

That honestly is the stupidest rule for 8th i know of now... why is there a re-roll for ties? The rules state "You win if roll higher'' a tie means they didnt roll higher... wtf? There are many other roll off rules, some in Psychic powers others in abilities, but all state (i looked at 5 so might not be all, but i couldnt find anymore) who rolls higher wins, so why is there a need for this rule other than Pre-game setup?

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