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RedRegicide
Wych
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PostSubject: WWP Tarpit   Sun Nov 26 2017, 15:54

Hey guys, was reading he WWP psyker sniping thread and thought, what else could I do with this?

Is it worth bringing in two units, with large foot prints, to charge into an enemy unit, then consolidate into the rest of their line?

Issues:
Cost: Well yeah, it'll run you around 300 points for two units, 240 2 max packs of khymera, 280 for 40 kabalites, a 206 for 20 wyches with weapons

Distance: if its a Turn 1 charge, you have a pseudo re roll because its two units, so approximately 55% of one of the units getting in

if its Turn 2, and the tarpit has PFP, you will have around an 85% chance of getting in. (.55 + .55*.55)

Bubble Wrap: Well, either take them down turn 1 with shooting, and if thats not enough use one of the tarpits to charge it turn 1

Think its worth it? Or if nothing else just really funny. My current re worked list may or may not have 20 kabalites in a webway portal for fun and utility

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Voidhawk
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Sun Nov 26 2017, 21:31

If this is an actually useful strategy, I think either Wyches or Razorwing Flocks are the way to go.

Wyches have PfP for rerolling Turn 2 charges, a 4++/6+++ in CC for making expensive melee units feel useless, are 9pts per wound, and come in squads of up to 20 for multi-charging multiple units. Most importantly they have a 50% chance to deny falling back, potential forcing a shooting unit to fight them for multiple turns.

Razorwings are cheaper at 3.5pts per wound, and have larger bases but come in smaller units for multi-charging. They die faster though being T2, lacking any kind of save and need a Beastmaster to not evaporate to morale damage.

The issue with all of these options, is that the units (and the points you spent on them) are definitely going to die without hurting their targets much. They're just buying time for the rest of your army to do it's work, and if they die too quickly (say if you get greedy and charge three units and die when they fight-back) then you've achieved nothing and literally thrown those points away.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Sun Nov 26 2017, 21:58

@RedRegicide wrote:
Distance: if its a Turn 1 charge, you have a pseudo re roll because its two units, so approximately 55% of one of the units getting in

if its Turn 2, and the tarpit has PFP, you will have around an 85% chance of getting in. (.55 + .55*.55)

Here's my big issue with this; a 55% chance of something is way too unreliable to base much of a strategy on, especially since the upfront costs are quite hefty (3 CP and the points costs of the units). Waiting until turn 2 gives you better odds, but also seems like you're missing out on the part of the game when you'd actually want to tarpit something.

So I'm not sure that I see the point. Deep striking seems to work best on ranged units that need to get in fairly close to deal damage, but we don't really have any units like that which can't already deep strike.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Mon Nov 27 2017, 02:22

That's true, that's why i had kabalites as my option, so i was guaranteed something out of their sacrifice

Perhaps it would be better used for board control or a way to protect from alpha strikes.

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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Mon Nov 27 2017, 12:12

I'd say simple tarpits is kind of wasted potential on this Stratagem. However, it allows for some real fun tactics, like a Clawed Fiend bomb or delivering some nasty CC-specialists like Incubi in Turn 2 for almost assured drop assult charge, due to rerolls. Not to mention that you can WWP Biker models into the board. While at the moment it's not that amazing, I think they'll drop Reavers price in the Codex and that might start to be a really scary thought.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Mon Nov 27 2017, 12:55

Dropping the price won't do it, Reavers need some real teeth.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Mon Nov 27 2017, 13:02

Reavers would be good if they cost less IMO. Forget the mortal wounds, which is cool.

They are super fast for end game points, T5 with a drug 2W 4+ 6+++

Their blade vanes are sweet, S4 -1 in bulk, which is nice.

But they have real uses, like flying behind the enemy to prevent them from exiting transports or from escaping combat

Is blasters drop in price and so do reavers, I could see utilizing these guys a lot more

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Mon Nov 27 2017, 14:22

@FuelDrop wrote:
Dropping the price won't do it, Reavers need some real teeth.

It entirely depends on how much they drop in points by. If they were the same cost as a Wych they'd be an automatic take.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Mon Nov 27 2017, 14:29

We can but dream...

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Mon Nov 27 2017, 14:58

I agree with the above poster that a tarpit is a bit of a waste... sort of. Dropping ObSec into the enemy's deployment zone turn 2-3 would be nasty. Assuming you'll need a turn or 2 to remove some bubble wrap and area denial, that's time to get a Haemy into position to support some Wracks.

I'm wondering about the best use of WWP - punch or objectives? It's probably best we pull stuff in turn 2-3 for Power from Pain to reroll charges, since we'll almost certainly want to try to get into CC and not be shot to pieces as easily.

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Mon Nov 27 2017, 15:35

I originally saw it as a way to save 115pts on a raider for my grots

but then with al the discussion around 9" being difficult, i started wondering what else it could be good for

Kabalites get to shoot, have obj sec and are cheap, so that's why i thought theyd be a good candidate.

Could drop in Trueborn like the old days, but I feel like id just pay the extra 15 pts for scourges

I'm really torn but want to incorporate this in my strategy somehow

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Mon Nov 27 2017, 15:54

Even with both shooting and every model getting to attack (not likely), Kabs aren't going to do as much as like Clawed Fiends or Incubi. Only advantage there is ObSec, and if you're after ObSec, I can't help but wonder if 10 Wracks have more staying power (with and without Haemy) than 20 Wyches.

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Mon Nov 27 2017, 21:50

10 wracks and a haemy were my initial thought. That gives you 2 ossefactors to drop in for shooting, and then 2 electrocorrosive whips to help do some damage if they get charged. Maybe plus the new pistol on the Haemie.

15+ T5 wounds with 5++/6+++ depending on the regeneration of your haemie.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Wed Nov 29 2017, 12:43

10 Medusae in a Raider looks nice on a paper... 40 shots S4 ap-2

Edit: won't works as WWP is not for vehicles... Still it looks like a nice gun boat Smile

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Wed Nov 29 2017, 22:50

I've been thinking about using the WWP with 20 wyches and 10 incubi combined with a unit of 10 mandrakes. The rest of my list would be 5DL scourges, 3 ravagers, 3 razorwing jetfighters, 1 voidraven bomber, and a venom with an archon + 4 medusae.

The thought behind it would be:
- Drop the wyches, incubi, and mandrakes to either kill or tarpit what needs killing/tarpitting, or to counter enemy DS'ers, or to capture objectives (Wyches there to hold whatever they charge in combat)
- Ideally, all the DS I would have would make the opponent spread out to deny me deepstrikes, but stretching out their lines to create points of vulnerability
- use my extreme speed to concentrate my firepower on the vulnerable parts/the things that need to die first.

Its a very "Alpha-strikey" design, but I think it just may work. I have some assembly to do over the next couple of days, but I may try it out Friday against my buddies Iron warriors - I'll report back on how it does.

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Wed Nov 29 2017, 23:17

I'm very curious to hear how it goes! That's a lot of lances too. Also it has the ability to beta strike which is key

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Thu Nov 30 2017, 00:41

I will let you know! Although one correction on the list above - due to points limitations it will be 8 incubi and 9 mandrakes, but all else is exactly as above.

Just need to see if my friend gets permission to game from Wifey Razz

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Thu Nov 30 2017, 15:48

Actually, in a competitive way, the only thing that I should deepstrike is Lelith.

DE needs to have nearly all the points deployed in the first turn. Right now, a lot of lists can make a deadly alpha strike with nearly all the army. We can handle it, but we need nearly all our choices on the ground. Consider that we normally deploy more units than the opponet, so being second player is not so rare for us.

So...if you'll DS any big unit, you're basically play the first turn of the game with like 1600/1700 vs 2000. It's pretty bad for us.
And if you think to DS into turn 2-3, well, things will get a terrible way..


But Lelith:
-It's HQ. You can protect your HQ by keeping her in the web until you want release her. So you're protecting your General from the opponent as you wish;
-It's cheap. She still in that approved range that we can keep in reserves, without losing the game in turn 1;
-She is an objective grabber. She is able to shred any small unit which is keeping any objective;
-She is a killer. She push any enemy character to protect themselves almost until turn 3, or she will appear and try a charge on him. S4, 7 attacks and any 5+ to hit is 2 more hits.

Playing with, you know, 2x20 blobs or 10 Grots etc it's liking manage any 2000 points alpha strike with only 1600 points. I tried it: it's horrible.


For us, the best way to use the wwp is by deploying small cheap unit(s) with a task to do.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Thu Nov 30 2017, 16:51

I had thought about using an archon with mandrakes as a small assassin squad, or incubi as an assassin squad.

Lelith has the character rule, as would the archon , which makes for some great chracter shenanigans as well as her small profile.

But didnt we (dark city) agree a succubus was better for her points? or are you thinking lelith is better because shes a single drop in this case

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Thu Nov 30 2017, 17:43

@RedRegicide wrote:
I had thought about using an archon with mandrakes as a small assassin squad, or incubi as an assassin squad.

Lelith has the character rule, as would the archon , which makes for some great chracter shenanigans as well as her small profile.

But didnt we (dark city) agree a succubus was better for her points? or are you thinking lelith is better because shes a single drop in this case

It is no longer true. Succubus can't use the warlord trait efficiently. Lelith can and will generate some additionnal attacks.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Thu Nov 30 2017, 18:25

@dumpeal wrote:
@RedRegicide wrote:
I had thought about using an archon with mandrakes as a small assassin squad, or incubi as an assassin squad.

Lelith has the character rule, as would the archon , which makes for some great chracter shenanigans as well as her small profile.

But didnt we (dark city) agree a succubus was better for her points? or are you thinking lelith is better because shes a single drop in this case

It is no longer true. Succubus can't use the warlord trait efficiently. Lelith can and will generate some additionnal attacks.

It's probably still true. Even with the Warlord trait, running Lelith means that you're paying 50 points more for an average of 4 more attacks compared to an Agoniser Succubus, a lower chance to wound most models, a slightly higher AP and +1 to your invulnerable save. Doesn't really seem worth it to me, even now.

She does make better use of the Warlord trait than a stock Succubus, but do you really want to be running that Warlord trait?
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Thu Nov 30 2017, 18:40

@Burnage wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
@RedRegicide wrote:
I had thought about using an archon with mandrakes as a small assassin squad, or incubi as an assassin squad.

Lelith has the character rule, as would the archon , which makes for some great chracter shenanigans as well as her small profile.

But didnt we (dark city) agree a succubus was better for her points? or are you thinking lelith is better because shes a single drop in this case

It is no longer true. Succubus can't use the warlord trait efficiently. Lelith can and will generate some additionnal attacks.

It's probably still true. Even with the Warlord trait, running Lelith means that you're paying 50 points more for an average of 4 more attacks compared to an Agoniser Succubus, a lower chance to wound most models, a slightly higher AP and +1 to your invulnerable save. Doesn't really seem worth it to me, even now.

She does make better use of the Warlord trait than a stock Succubus, but do you really want to be running that Warlord trait?

But she is not an auto-discard as she was before. On turn 3, she'll generate additionnal hit on 5+, which double her damage output.
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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Thu Nov 30 2017, 21:35

@Cerve wrote:
Actually, in a competitive way, the only thing that I should deepstrike is Lelith.

DE needs to have nearly all the points deployed in the first turn. Right now, a lot of lists can make a deadly alpha strike with nearly all the army. We can handle it, but we need nearly all our choices on the ground. Consider that we normally deploy more units than the opponet, so being second player is not so rare for us.

So...if you'll DS any big unit, you're basically play the first turn of the game with like 1600/1700 vs 2000. It's pretty bad for us.
And if you think to DS into turn 2-3, well, things will get a terrible way..

I respectfully disagree - I play 1-2 tournaments a year so I can't claim to be a top tier tourney player, but my view is that I'm relatively safe from being shot off the board. In the list I posted, 3 ravagers, 1 venom, an Archon, and 4 medusae would need to be killed for me to auto-lose.

Even against the hardest lists i've faced in tourneys, I usually haven't lost more than 3 raiders/ravagers in turn 1, and the amount of scenery makes a huge difference - I am often able to hide my venom out of LOS to prevent getting alpha striked to oblivion.

While I get what your saying with needing "all your forces" doing things right away to win, I don't think DE is designed to really match that strategy - we suck at attrition, we die in droves. The games i've won have all been about decisively striking the right target at the right time.

With as many Dark lances as I have (I am a fan of redundancy) I am confident that I can take the biggest armoured threats off the table before losing my AT abilities. Scourges would come down turn 1, giving me yet another unit that they would need to decimate before I auto-lose.

The biggest tactical advantage of having the big blobs in reserve isn't really the impact they'll have when they come down (although I do see that as a huge positive) - It's messing with your opponents head. With the speed our lists can have, I feel that we are in a good place to capitalize on mistakes or hesitation (ie: spreading out their entire force? pick the more secluded targets and stay out of range/los of 80% of their army)

That being said, it looks like I am on for gaming Friday with my friend (who plays more tournament games than I do and often places top 5) so I'll have a better idea of how it will work once I've run it at least once - for now this is all theory.

Despite the warlord trait, I don't think Lelith (or any of our special characters tbh) is worth the points, nor do I really see her as a great "objective holder" - she's not THAT hard to kill.

But of course, this is all just my opinion Smile

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Thu Nov 30 2017, 22:46

Tbh I just like the idea of an assassin and also really want to make WW relevant

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PostSubject: Re: WWP Tarpit   Thu Nov 30 2017, 23:05

@Burnage wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
@RedRegicide wrote:
I had thought about using an archon with mandrakes as a small assassin squad, or incubi as an assassin squad.

Lelith has the character rule, as would the archon , which makes for some great chracter shenanigans as well as her small profile.

But didnt we (dark city) agree a succubus was better for her points? or are you thinking lelith is better because shes a single drop in this case

It is no longer true. Succubus can't use the warlord trait efficiently. Lelith can and will generate some additionnal attacks.

It's probably still true. Even with the Warlord trait, running Lelith means that you're paying 50 points more for an average of 4 more attacks compared to an Agoniser Succubus, a lower chance to wound most models, a slightly higher AP and +1 to your invulnerable save. Doesn't really seem worth it to me, even now.

She does make better use of the Warlord trait than a stock Succubus, but do you really want to be running that Warlord trait?

Of course I want, it's the best one with her.
S4 for the drugs, 5 attacks (double blade)+2 with barbed hair. 2+, reroll of 1, then reroll to wound if you managed to get a Character.
If you do not, you still making something like 11-13 (15 some times!), pretty capable to shred any small unit.
If you do, that's a pretty great amount of hits, with a reroll to hit (and -4 rend most of them).

She's like 2 Succubus actually, for their pourpose.
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