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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Fri Nov 24 2017, 23:57

@FuelDrop wrote:
Effective relics? You do remember the Djinn blade from last edition right?

Indeed, hence why I hoped we'd get 'other relics' as opposed to 'our old relics'. Very Happy


Then again, Coven had some decent relics (well, decent compared to the codex ones, at least). I mean, Sindriq's Sump was pretty good (though it's cheap cost was a big factor, and one which won't help it now), and I liked the idea of the Panacea.

Then again, Covens also had the Orbs of Despair, so perhaps a fresh start would be the way to go . . .
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Sun Nov 26 2017, 22:23

@the_scotsman wrote:
Not sure how you came to that average.
Base odds of 9 or better = 10/36 = 27.777, call it 28%

Therefore reroll with reroll = 28+28=56%

Simulating the charge roll on Excel using if functions (basically 2 columns running random 1-6, six columns with an If function looking for 6, 5, and 4 in the two random columns and returning the success odds of a reroll with that number, 66%, 50%, and 33%) with 5000 trials looking at the average it hovers around 71% if you only take 5 or 6, 75% if you're willing to take a reroll on 4.

Basically you combine odds of the initial roll (always 28) with the reroll (28, 33, 50, or 66) to get the total odds (56, 61, 78, 94) then just average that column.

Unfortunately you aren't taking into account the fail cases. A 28% success rate has a 72% fail rate, which must be taken into account otherwise if you had 4 rerolls, then you'd be over 100% success rate. Which is impossible.
The guys in the deep strike thread gave a great breakdown of the maths in this same tactics forum
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Mon Nov 27 2017, 07:15

I think most good relics even in the codexes are the ones that are not there for the damage.

I can't speak about any of the marine codexes, but from the IG codex I can say all the good relics are those that give good rules.

Gaining more command points, being a comissar (the usefull variant, not the negative one we have now), getting deep strike, giving more orders.
The special weapon options, that are for damage (special power sword and such) are rubbish in comparison.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Tue Nov 28 2017, 00:01

@|Meavar wrote:
I think most good relics even in the codexes are the ones that are not there for the damage.

I can't speak about any of the marine codexes, but from the IG codex I can say all the good relics are those that give good rules.

Gaining more command points, being a comissar (the usefull variant, not the negative one we have now), getting deep strike, giving more orders.
The special weapon options, that are for damage (special power sword and such) are rubbish in comparison.

Well, that's sure for an IG. You don't really need to get in CC (:
Generally I agree with you (but sometimes, like the DG, the relic sword is not useless at all in some combinations).
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Tue Nov 28 2017, 00:41

@|Meavar wrote:
I think most good relics even in the codexes are the ones that are not there for the damage.

I can't speak about any of the marine codexes, but from the IG codex I can say all the good relics are those that give good rules.

Gaining more command points, being a comissar (the usefull variant, not the negative one we have now), getting deep strike, giving more orders.
The special weapon options, that are for damage (special power sword and such) are rubbish in comparison.

I agree to an extent. However, to use your IG example, I think very few armies actually need all the utility relics.

- The Laurels of Command are pretty good in any infantry/MT army.
- The Aquila can be useful (especially against Ultramarines and the like), but with Grand Strategist and an almost unparalleled ability to fill detachments, IG are rarely short of CPs anyway.
- The Dagger can be good for some strategies, but certainly isn't an auto-include and is largely unnecessary in many armies.
- The others (like the Relic of Lost Cadia or Pietrov's MK 45) are all tied to a particular regiment, and obviously can't be taken by any others (assuming they'd be useful in the first place).

To be clear, I'm not saying that any of the above are bad, nor that they're worse than the other relics. They're almost certainly better.

However, what I'm saying is that, for the most part, they're not necessary. Certainly not for most strategies.

And, whilst undoubtedly weaker than utility relics, I'd argue that relics like the Blade of Conquest are often more fun. Be honest, who doesn't like seeing their HQ bravely charging in to smash face once in a while?

I think one of the main appeals of relics is to help add flavour to characters and make them stand out more. And while some commanders may be accurately represented by strategy-based relics, others may be better represented by unique swords, pistols, armour or the like.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Tue Nov 28 2017, 02:26

@The Shredder wrote:
I think one of the main appeals of relics is to help add flavour to characters and make them stand out more. And while some commanders may be accurately represented by strategy-based relics, others may be better represented by unique swords, pistols, armour or the like.
So what you are saying is you want the highly characterful Djinn Blade back Wink

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Tue Nov 28 2017, 07:36

@The Shredder wrote:

To be clear, I'm not saying that any of the above are bad, nor that they're worse than the other relics. They're almost certainly better.

However, what I'm saying is that, for the most part, they're not necessary. Certainly not for most strategies.

And, whilst undoubtedly weaker than utility relics, I'd argue that relics like the Blade of Conquest are often more fun. Be honest, who doesn't like seeing their HQ bravely charging in to smash face once in a while?

I think one of the main appeals of relics is to help add flavour to characters and make them stand out more. And while some commanders may be accurately represented by strategy-based relics, others may be better represented by unique swords, pistols, armour or the like.

I understand you point, and agree to it mostly. Although I often think additional options in game are more fun than a slightly better attack.

I think I feel the main issue I have is that I still don't see the HQ bravely charging in to smash face once in a while with most relics. The relic power sword is only a tiny bit better then a regular power sword, which means that an average HQ will still be unable to "smash face" I might be biased here since this is more true for IG than most others (and unfortunately also a bit more for our HQs). But an guard HQ will get his ass handed to him against pretty much every other HQ even if he is armed with a relic. So the relic itself does not feel special anymore. If I take this character and I give it a sword of heaven blessed by the emperor himself crafted in the time when technology was at it's height and the blade can pierce solid stone like butter and I deal on average 1 wound to the basic orc HQ without any items and then suffer 3 wounds in return, I feel like the sword is not really any special or good. And thus for me actually makes it less fun, since it feels like it is just another power sword that does not do much.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Tue Nov 28 2017, 10:06

@Kantalla wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
I think one of the main appeals of relics is to help add flavour to characters and make them stand out more. And while some commanders may be accurately represented by strategy-based relics, others may be better represented by unique swords, pistols, armour or the like.
So what you are saying is you want the highly characterful Djinn Blade back Wink

Suspect

@|Meavar wrote:

I understand you point, and agree to it mostly. Although I often think additional options in game are more fun than a slightly better attack.

Depends on the option, I think. For example, Laurels of Command is a bit more interactive than, say, the Aquila.

@|Meavar wrote:

I think I feel the main issue I have is that I still don't see the HQ bravely charging in to smash face once in a while with most relics. The relic power sword is only a tiny bit better then a regular power sword, which means that an average HQ will still be unable to "smash face"

I'm not sure I can agree with that.

A regular Power Sword on a guardsman is S3 AP-3 D1
The Blade of Conquest is S5 AP-4 Dd3

That seems substantially better in my view. It certainly doesn't make the wielder a monster in combat (but then what do you expect for a 34pt HQ Wink ), but he'll be smashing a damn sight more face than he would with a regular power sword.

@|Meavar wrote:

I might be biased here since this is more true for IG than most others (and unfortunately also a bit more for our HQs). But an guard HQ will get his ass handed to him against pretty much every other HQ even if he is armed with a relic. So the relic itself does not feel special anymore. If I take this character and I give it a sword of heaven blessed by the emperor himself crafted in the time when technology was at it's height and the blade can pierce solid stone like butter and I deal on average 1 wound to the basic orc HQ without any items and then suffer 3 wounds in return, I feel like the sword is not really any special or good. And thus for me actually makes it less fun, since it feels like it is just another power sword that does not do much.

That's a fair viewpoint, though shouldn't he be doing at least 2 wounds to the Ork HQ (the average of a d3)?

The thing for me is that my commanders tend to be far at the back, so anything that even gets close to them has usually had to wade through multiple guardsmen squads and suffer a considerable amount of firepower. Hence, it's very rarely on full wounds (and if it is, I probably won't charge my commander expect as a last resort). So, if my company commander charges, it'll almost always be to try and finish off a wounded HQ or monster, or kill the last couple of members of a squad - rather than trying to kill something on full health.

I appreciate that this is less impressive than a 'fair' duel (where the enemy is on full health to begin with), but it it rather more pragmatic. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Wed Nov 29 2017, 05:51

Probably you are right. (But their HQ should never be able to make it past the lines of guardsmen!!)
The stats are slightly better then I expected, I will try to have one of the weapons in my next game and see how it does.
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Fri Dec 01 2017, 08:50

I’m late to the discussion party here but I’d just like to re-hash that the Wych Warlord trait isn’t absolute garbage.

*Note* this is on the assumption that the trait works on the final value of the die, not the natural roll.

*Note2* Lelith is part of her Wych Cult and as such is considered a Wych Cult HQ and is able to take the Warlord Trait. This was discussed in 8th’s first FAQ so that people couldn’t make their own Wych cult called the “Prophets of Flesh” and claim Urien boosted their T value.

With all that being said, I’d like to start with this perspective from Lilith and some math. Let’s say, through some poor rolling, you got 3 hits without Lelith. On a 6+, these hits will actually hit 3 times. 3*(1/6) = 0.5. Times 3, this is 1.5 hits, plus the 2.5, you’re now looking at 4 hits from what was once 3. A 33% increase in hits. That’s actually slightly more effective than just giving Lelith an extra attack. 1 extra attack is actually 1*(5/6) + 1(1/6)(5/6) in this instance, or .972 hits. So because the Warlord trait is a straight 33% increase in offensive effectiveness, so long as you get 3 or more hits with your HQ, it’s a better deal than the basic +1 attacks.

The fun part, is when you realize. Oh wait. I can boost this roll with a drug, aaaand you get another +1 on turn 3. Every +1 bonus you get to this roll is another 33% increase in effectiveness. If it’s a 5+, 33% of the hits become tripled,
33% * 3 = 99%
99% + un altered single hits 66% = 166% hits.
When you get a +2, you literally double your hits. 4+ = 50%. 50%*3 +50% leftover = 200%

I realize that Lelith isn’t the best, but the fact of the matter is, with this Warlord trait, with WS drug and on Turn 3, she’s killing twice as much as she used to. That’s pretty darn good.

Now a 5+ = 3 hits on a Glaive Succubus? You’re still 166% more effective than she would be without the WS drug and Warlord trait. Someone else will have to run the math though and see what the difference is after wounds if she has +1 Strengh in the glaive, especially against T3 opponents.

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URIEN
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Fri Dec 01 2017, 09:04

@Barrywise wrote:
I’m late to the discussion party here but I’d just like to re-hash that the Wych Warlord trait isn’t absolute garbage.

*Note* this is on the assumption that the trait works on the final value of the die, not the natural roll.

Thankyou! finally, it goes off the final result after modifiers. Where does it say anywhere that it's the "natural roll". It even has a "6+" written into the warlord trait, that in itself tells me after modifiers. Good to see someone who knows it isn't "useless". Also for the most part as far as tactics are concerned for me. If I had say a Succubus and 20 Bloodbrides int he webway I would't send them out 'till turn 3 anyway to get the best damage output possible. You know the drill, re-rolls to charge, +1 to hit. That and the enemy should, hopefully, be spread out thus letting us pick our targets better.

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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Fri Dec 01 2017, 09:46

@Barrywise wrote:
I’m late to the discussion party here but I’d just like to re-hash that the Wych Warlord trait isn’t absolute garbage.

*Note* this is on the assumption that the trait works on the final value of the die, not the natural roll.

*Note2* Lelith is part of her Wych Cult and as such is considered a Wych Cult HQ and is able to take the Warlord Trait. This was discussed in 8th’s first FAQ so that people couldn’t make their own Wych cult called the “Prophets of Flesh” and claim Urien boosted their T value.

With all that being said, I’d like to start with this perspective from Lilith and some math. Let’s say, through some poor rolling, you got 3 hits without Lelith. On a 6+, these hits will actually hit 3 times. 3*(1/6) = 0.5. Times 3, this is 1.5 hits, plus the 2.5, you’re now looking at 4 hits from what was once 3. A 33% increase in hits. That’s actually slightly more effective than just giving Lelith an extra attack. 1 extra attack is actually 1*(5/6) + 1(1/6)(5/6) in this instance, or .972 hits. So because the Warlord trait is a straight 33% increase in offensive effectiveness, so long as you get 3 or more hits with your HQ, it’s a better deal than the basic +1 attacks.

The fun part, is when you realize. Oh wait. I can boost this roll with a drug, aaaand you get another +1 on turn 3. Every +1 bonus you get to this roll is another 33% increase in effectiveness. If it’s a 5+, 33% of the hits become tripled,
33% * 3 = 99%
99% + un altered single hits 66% = 166% hits.
When you get a +2, you literally double your hits. 4+ = 50%. 50%*3 +50% leftover = 200%

I realize that Lelith isn’t the best, but the fact of the matter is, with this Warlord trait, with WS drug and on Turn 3, she’s killing twice as much as she used to. That’s pretty darn good.

Now a 5+ = 3 hits on a Glaive Succubus? You’re still 166% more effective than she would be without the WS drug and Warlord trait. Someone else will have to run the math though and see what the difference is after wounds if she has +1 Strengh in the glaive, especially against T3 opponents.

Hate to burst your bubble but the drug gives +1 WS, not +1 to hit. If it did the trait would be pretty damn good.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Fri Dec 01 2017, 09:57

@FuelDrop wrote:
@Barrywise wrote:
I’m late to the discussion party here but I’d just like to re-hash that the Wych Warlord trait isn’t absolute garbage.

*Note* this is on the assumption that the trait works on the final value of the die, not the natural roll.

*Note2* Lelith is part of her Wych Cult and as such is considered a Wych Cult HQ and is able to take the Warlord Trait. This was discussed in 8th’s first FAQ so that people couldn’t make their own Wych cult called the “Prophets of Flesh” and claim Urien boosted their T value.

With all that being said, I’d like to start with this perspective from Lilith and some math. Let’s say, through some poor rolling, you got 3 hits without Lelith. On a 6+, these hits will actually hit 3 times. 3*(1/6) = 0.5. Times 3, this is 1.5 hits, plus the 2.5, you’re now looking at 4 hits from what was once 3. A 33% increase in hits. That’s actually slightly more effective than just giving Lelith an extra attack. 1 extra attack is actually 1*(5/6) + 1(1/6)(5/6) in this instance, or .972 hits. So because the Warlord trait is a straight 33% increase in offensive effectiveness, so long as you get 3 or more hits with your HQ, it’s a better deal than the basic +1 attacks.

The fun part, is when you realize. Oh wait. I can boost this roll with a drug, aaaand you get another +1 on turn 3. Every +1 bonus you get to this roll is another 33% increase in effectiveness. If it’s a 5+, 33% of the hits become tripled,
33% * 3 = 99%
99% + un altered single hits 66% = 166% hits.
When you get a +2, you literally double your hits. 4+ = 50%. 50%*3 +50% leftover = 200%

I realize that Lelith isn’t the best, but the fact of the matter is, with this Warlord trait, with WS drug and on Turn 3, she’s killing twice as much as she used to. That’s pretty darn good.

Now a 5+ = 3 hits on a Glaive Succubus? You’re still 166% more effective than she would be without the WS drug and Warlord trait. Someone else will have to run the math though and see what the difference is after wounds if she has +1 Strengh in the glaive, especially against T3 opponents.

Hate to burst your bubble but the drug gives +1 WS, not +1 to hit. If it did the trait would be pretty damn good.

Indeed. I'm just doing some mathhammer to see what effect the warlord trait has on Lelith. If I get time I'll see about the Succubus too.

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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Fri Dec 01 2017, 10:24

Right, maththammer is a little tricky on this one but as near as I can tell, Blood Dancer takes Lelith from 7.77 hits per fight phase to 13.22 hits. Obviously the effect of those hits will vary based on the target but it does clearly mean a significant (~70%) boost for her. As mentioned above, +1WS is meaningless in relation to this Warlord Trait and indeed is utterly worthless for Lelith. I have instead opted for +1A to get more benefit from Blood Dancer.

Interestingly, this trait also makes the +1 to hit from PfP actually do something for Lelith, whereas without the trait she gains no benefit from it whatsoever.

I'll try to do the Succubus later if I get a chance.

TLDR: Blood Dancer is not actually bad for Lelith. Unfortunately, Lelith is still bad.

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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Fri Dec 01 2017, 10:31

I used Lelith in a game last night and she threw out a scary amount of attacks, though she struggles to wound in most cases which is a shame. The Succubus is the only HQ I don't have, the portal makes me want to pick one up and make more use of my Wyches and such if anything.

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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Fri Dec 01 2017, 12:10

I agree that the Wych warlord trait is pretty decent, though it comes with the downside of putting your Warlord in danger.

When I'm brining a Succubus I always give her the Impaler and the +1 Str drug. Since I face alot of T4 Marine characters the 4+ to wound is important, and dmg 2 basically doubles her damage-output. The better AP on the glaive and Agoniser is less useful because they often have Invul saves.
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Fri Dec 01 2017, 12:47

I guess this is where we have to sacrifice our pistol for say an Agoniser, though I know several people prefer not to do that. Especially since the Parasite's kiss is pretty nifty.

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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Fri Dec 01 2017, 19:18

Oh, Count, Instead of giving Lelith the +1 Attack which is 8/7 or 14% increase in standard hits, try giving her the +1 S instead. Against Toughness 3 and 4 opponents, she'll basically have a +1 against them.
Failed Math, Posting for Now as a reference, will come back later.:
 

Ah cripes. I just realized something...
so we've been doing the math assuming that since it's on a 6+ or a 5+ that it's a 1/6  and a 2/6 chance right? well not quite. Because we're looking only at successful dice rolls that means we're looking at results of 2,3,4,5,6. We've already weeded out the 1's. That means it's actually a 1/5 chance to cause it and a 2/5 chance on a 5+.

Because it's not like you take all of your hits and reroll them trying to get a 5/6+ . It's the hits that you already rolled and if they happen to be a 5 or 6, then the ability goes off.

So instead of 8 standard attacks into 7.77 hits where 7.77*(1/3 or 5+)*(3 hits Blood Dance) + 7.77*(2/3 non blood dance) = 13.3 hits after.

it's instead, 7.78*(2/5)*(3) + 7.78*(3/5) = 14 hits. so instead of a 70% increase, its more like a 75% increase of hits on a 5+.

Not a huge difference, but still thought it was important enough to mention.

Final Math of Lelith +1A drug vs +1S:
 

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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Fri Dec 01 2017, 22:04

I think I took that into account in my maths as I looked at the probability of getting a 5+ on the initial hit roll plus the chance of a 5+ on a re-rolled 1. I didn't get a chance to try +1S and also couldn't be arsed to run the maths for various different opponents so I stuck to number of hits and +1A.

It definitely buffs Lelith but I'm not sure that it does enough to make her worth taking and I have a fundamental problem with the trait itself and that is that extra attacks are of extremely limited use on models that struggle to wound their opponents.

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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Sat Dec 02 2017, 01:18

Yeah, I guess you have to put her fully into perspective. Originally neither the Succubus nor Lelith did an incredible amount of work. But Lelith is actually able to live up to her name now with this warlord trait. An average of 5 dead marines, each round of combat is really nice. Lelith basically does just as much work as a 5 man squad of Incubi against Armored targets.

Lelith under perfect conditions, kills approx 5 marines a turn. a 5 man Incubi squad under perfect conditions(turn3+) minus Drazhar's rerolls, kills approx 5.5 marines a turn. They both have 3+ saves, but Lelith's is invuln. Lelith doesn't degrade after taking wounds, and is able to lock enemy infantry in combat. She, obviously takes more damage from multiwound weapons though. and costs about 40% more than the 5-man incubi squad. Also Lelith gets the reroll wounds against characters so that she can sorta hold her own for a bit... sorta

So you pay more for her, but at least now there's a reason for it. Giving a 75% increase in hits means she's almost twice as good as she was before.

So to compare Lelith and Succubus.
4 situations for the Succubus: +1S, +1A, +1WS with a glaive, and +1A with an agonizer on Turn 3+. Warlord trait will be Blood Dancer, Otherwise there's another +1 Attack on the charge basic warlord trait right? Anyways,

Succbus Math:
 

So obviously against Monstrous Creatures the agonizer is able to wound on a 4+ instead of a 6+ that Lelith would be doing, against most basic infantry, the Glaive is the better weapon.

Best case scenario for Succubus: Glaive, Blood Dancer, +1Attack, Turn 3+
4.54 GEQ
3.78 MEQ

So compared to the
7.5 GEQ
5 MEQ

of Lelith, it's obvious which character kills more. Which, to be fair, I think Lelith and the Succubus were sadly about even before the new warlord trait Blood Dancer. To be exact, because why not, Lelith kills 32% more MEQ and 65% more GEQ than the Succubus.

HOWEVER THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM.
Lelith costs 74% more than the Succubus. You could practically have 2 succubi instead of Lelith. So while Lelith has a better Invuln, who cares? being able to spend less than 100 points on a HQ means an extra dark Lance or two somewhere else in your army. Vect knows we need more of them.

-Sorry again for the long post, but now the topic has been mostly/fully explored. Could you imagine what we could accomplish if we still had venom blades? Luckily I don't think they'll break fluff so bad that Lelith will have a venom blade. 11.5 hits with a 2+ to wound Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Sat Dec 02 2017, 01:23

@Barrywise wrote:
Yeah, I guess you have to put her fully into perspective. Originally neither the Succubus nor Lelith did an incredible amount of work. But Lelith is actually able to live up to her name now with this warlord trait. An average of 5 dead marines, each round of combat is really nice. Lelith basically does just as much work as a 5 man squad of Incubi against Armored targets.

Lelith under perfect conditions, kills approx 5 marines a turn. a 5 man Incubi squad under perfect conditions(turn3+) minus Drazhar's rerolls, kills approx 5.5 marines a turn. They both have 3+ saves, but Lelith's is invuln. Lelith doesn't degrade after taking wounds, and is able to lock enemy infantry in combat. She, obviously takes more damage from multiwound weapons though.  and costs about 40% more than the 5-man incubi squad. Also Lelith gets the reroll wounds against characters so that she can sorta hold her own for a bit... sorta

So you pay more for her, but at least now there's a reason for it. Giving a 75% increase in hits means she's almost twice as good as she was before.

So to compare Lelith and Succubus.
4 situations for the Succubus: +1S, +1A, +1WS  with a glaive, and +1A with an agonizer on Turn 3+. Warlord trait will be Blood Dancer, Otherwise there's another +1 Attack on the charge basic warlord trait right? Anyways,

Succbus Math:
 

So obviously against Monstrous Creatures the agonizer is able to wound on a 4+ instead of a 6+ that Lelith would be doing, against most basic infantry, the Glaive is the better weapon.

Best case scenario for Succubus: Glaive, Blood Dancer, +1Attack, Turn 3+
4.54 GEQ
3.78 MEQ

So compared to the
7.5 GEQ
5 MEQ

of Lelith, it's obvious which character kills more. Which, to be fair, I think Lelith and the Succubus were sadly about even before the new warlord trait Blood Dancer. To be exact, because why not, Lelith kills 32% more MEQ and 65% more GEQ than the Succubus.

HOWEVER THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM.
Lelith costs 74% more than the Succubus. You could practically have 2 succubi instead of Lelith. So while Lelith has a better Invuln, who cares? being able to spend less than 100 points on a HQ means an extra dark Lance or two somewhere else in your army. Vect knows we need more of them.

-Sorry again for the long post, but now the topic has been mostly/fully explored. Could you imagine what we could accomplish if we still had venom blades? Luckily I don't think they'll break fluff so bad that Lelith will have a venom blade. 11.5 hits with a 2+ to wound  Twisted Evil

Obviously we cannot hand out venom blades because... um... *smokebomb!*
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Voidhawk
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Sun Dec 03 2017, 15:57

Care to run the numbers on giving both Lilleth and the Succubus an Impaler and the +1 Str drug? Against characters the D2 on it is very significant, especially if they have an Inv so AP doesn't matter so much.
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Sun Dec 03 2017, 20:19

Yeah sure thing. Against low toughness but high invuln save models, like Heralds of Tzeentch (HoT), The Impaler seems like a good weapon. and actually, other than the bonus from Lelith's hair, they're basically the same stats. I'll put blood dancer on both, as it's slightly better than +1 Attack (on average) when you have more than 3 attacks, and if you roll a 6 to hit with any of the dice, you basically double the potential damage for that round. Pretty scary to think if you roll 3 6's...


Succubus + Lelith Impaler attacks with +1Strength before Turn 3:
 

Succubus + Lelith Impaler attacks after Turn 3:
 

Lelith +1Strength against Character after Turn 3:
 

Bonus damage, Turn 3+:
 


So to sum it all up, with +1S and Blood Dancer on Turn 3+, They both average 7 hits, and against multi-wound targets they will each do 8,4 and 2 damage against T3, 4 and 5 enemies.

Lelith would do 1, 1/2 and 1/4 extra damage with her hair, while the succubus could get an extra 1 damage from a blast pistol, assuming you could either shoot it before charging or sustain melee long enough to get it off in the second round.

Where Lelith really shines though is when she is against Characters, Turn 3+, +1 Strength, Blood Dancer with Impaler Lelith vs. Succbus Overall Damage:
Toughness 3, 5+ armor: 10.367+2.07 = 11.867 vs. 7.78
Toughness 4, 3+ armor: 5.25+ 0.875 = 6.125 vs. 3.5
Toughness 5, 3+ armor: 3.89 + 0.65 = 4.54 vs. 2.3

so Lelith is
52.5 %
75%
97.4%
more effective against characters with the Impaler than the Succubus with the Impaler. Against Toughness 5, 3+ AS with an Agonizer, +1Attack and Blood Dancer, the succubus gets ~3 (2.92) damage off.

[*EDIT*] Something I'd also like to draw attention to, is with Lelith against a target like Tyranid Warriors (3 wounds each) after a full round of combat, if you have a tyranid warrior on just 1 HP left, you can opt to use her hair weapon first, to try and finish it off, instead of wasting an attack with the Impaler. I think that's some seriously good utility.

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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Tue Dec 05 2017, 19:52

Since we're on the topic of HQs and Chapter Approved, is anyone else considering walking HQs more due to the character targeting changes? Especially with the prevalence of psykers from Nids and Eldar, and other armies' psykers also being hard to target, I'm really close to putting 2 Haemonculi on foot with Crucibles to march up and detonate.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Tue Dec 05 2017, 20:04

I dont see a problem with that. Just have a spare Venom near LOS blocker to pop them into if you spot any Rangers or such.
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