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 Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?

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the_scotsman
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PostSubject: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Tue Nov 21 2017, 18:22

So with 2 of the chapter Approved changes bearing out exactly, it's looking like the faeit rumors were true. In that case, how best should we make use of the CWE table scraps we will be tossed?

Stratagem: 1cp to deep strike one infantry unit, 3cp to deep strike 2. Can only be used once.

This is the best of what we get, though I am obviously salty that the CWE version allows for vehicles when ours are the ones that had deep strike originally, grumble grumble.

But, we have the advantage of Turn 2 getting rerolls on our charges so we can reliably use melee units with this to some good success. Standouts I'm thinking would be Kabalites or Trueborn for the shooty version, Hellions for a bit of shooting and a decent charge, and Grotesques or Incubi for a solid assault unit using the stratagem.

Warlord Trait (Kabal): reroll ones in the fight phase for the warlord.

Why, why could we not have gotten the reroll one to hit aura that every other faction gets on their captain-style units? Then the archon could at least be half as good as an Autarch... Well, this is what we get, and boy oh boy is it useless.

Warlord trait (wych cult): a roll of 6+ in the fight phase counts as three hits

Hahahaha....this trait doesn't even work until turn three with an archite Glaive.... Well, if you're running an agonizer succubus this works?

Warlord Trait (Covens): warlord heals D3 wounds per turn

Thus fixing the nonexistent problem of Haemonculi dying too fast. Well, it's semi thematic, do you reckon it outperforms +1A on the charge or 6+++?

Relic: 2 shot Poison 2+ AP-2 D2 splinter pistol, bearer heals a wound any time this weapon causes damage.

This is actually not terrible for Succubi or Haemonculi. Anything to help them deal better damage is good and it solidly beats blast pistols vs most characters thanks to 2 shots. I'll probably stick to a blaster with my archon.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Tue Nov 21 2017, 18:33

The Wych Cult Warlord Trait should be pretty good on Lelith, if she can take it. With the +1A drug and two Penetrating Blades she'll be throwing out an average of 12 attacks a turn...
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wict01
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Tue Nov 21 2017, 18:41

Could you not just put the +1 WS drug on the succubus to get the benefit of that WT straight away?
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Tue Nov 21 2017, 18:45

The first thing that came into my mind when I read the coven warlord trait was "Grotesques". With a T6 given by the Haemonculus they are almost good, but with additional healing they just might be worth it.

Also, they are one of the few infantry units that would be worth using the Deep Strike stratagem for 1cp.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Tue Nov 21 2017, 18:51

@wict01 wrote:
Could you not just put the +1 WS drug on the succubus to get the benefit of that WT straight away?

No. a +1 on WS isn't equal to a +1 on the dice roll. The +1 WS lower the fail limit of the roll, while the +1 increased the result. Ultimately, it does the same, except when you have special rules that trigger on a specific dice roll.
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hekatrixxy
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Tue Nov 21 2017, 19:45

The faeit rumours don't necessarily have the precise wording though, just the idea, assuming they are even correct.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Tue Nov 21 2017, 20:14

@hekatrixxy wrote:
The faeit rumours don't necessarily have the precise wording though, just the idea, assuming they are even correct.

Well, the wording "on a 6+" is pretty straightfoward. The issues is more on the drug rule.
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the_scotsman
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Tue Nov 21 2017, 21:02

RAW I don't think lelith can take it unless she counts as a Wych Cult model, other named characters in the codexes get warlord traits assigned.

Though I think any reasonable opponent would allow it. Especially considering how useless the trait is on a regular succubus.

Random fun fact, I was checking the default loadouts that our plastic models have to see what we'd likely be locked into when the codex drops.

The Haemonculus default loadout seems to be illegal in the present rules. He's got a stinger pistol, Haemonculus tool (the knife), ichor injector and scissorhand. There's no way for him to have more than 2 weapons under current rules.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Tue Nov 21 2017, 21:25

@the_scotsman wrote:
Random fun fact, I was checking the default loadouts that our plastic models have to see what we'd likely be locked into when the codex drops.

As per the most recent FAQ, our HQ choices definitely aren't going to be locked into any wargear options. We'll be able to take all the Index options at the very least.
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Voidhawk
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Tue Nov 21 2017, 22:06

What are the Faet rumours/leaks exactly? Could someone post a link?
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the_scotsman
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Tue Nov 21 2017, 23:09

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/11/40k-rumors-xenos-traits-in-chapter-approved.html

These are the rumors I'm referring to (there are more for more different factions, but this page contains the DE rumors)

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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Tue Nov 21 2017, 23:18

20 kabalites for 140 points, that’s some major board control, and on a good charge good contest an objective with obj secured

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PFI
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Thu Nov 23 2017, 04:51

I agree, our warlord traits are garbage. They lend themselves horribly to our characters. May as well get +1 to deny the witch like TS
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Thu Nov 23 2017, 07:04

Some of these just stink of "did not think this through", such as the succubus one.

Tbh +d3 wounds per turn on a Haemie is fluffy and good. The question is why it isn’t stock.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Thu Nov 23 2017, 07:23

Hit rolls of 6+ causing extra hits is utter crap on a model that comes with a weapon that gives -1 to hit as standard. Unless they've changed the archite glaive then we can't even get any use out of it at all until at least turn 3(?).

Healing D3 wounds on the Haem is nice but I agree it should be stock, not a warlord trait.

Re-roll to hit and wound rolls of 1 is kind of okay if only the archon had some decent cc options.

Strategem is utter garbage as, unlike our craftworld cousins, we have no means to close the gap with the target once we arrive (ie no Quicken spell). So we're left with a 9" charge or a shooting attack and Blasterborn are probably the only unit that has sufficient shooting to even think about doing that. Even 20 warriors in rapid fire range doesn't even have the firepower to wipe out an AM infantry squad. Basically, unless your opponent has been stupid enough to leave an objective unguarded that you can drop a troop unit in and claim it (holding it is another matter) I don't think we'll be seeing much use out of that. Maybe, if Hellions or Reavers get a decent boost it might be worth considering but I have grave doubts.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Thu Nov 23 2017, 07:41

Hell, change the +2 move drug to +3 advance and charge, like Banshees.
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the_scotsman
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Thu Nov 23 2017, 14:33

Well, the bright side is past turn 2 we have universal reroll charges. The odds are hard to calculate exactly but if you have a two die reroll and the ability to reroll one at will, you've got about a 3/4 chance of getting in. It's why Ork melee deep strike is so good.

Banshees don't get their +3 if they deep strike, the only thing they have as an advantage is quicken and they can have Saim Hann tactics. Given that well likely get tactics on top of the reroll, I can see us making similar use out of the stratagem once we get a codex.

It's not like Harlequins, for whom it is almost totally useless. They just have no need for it.
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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Thu Nov 23 2017, 16:49

@the_scotsman wrote:
Well, the bright side is past turn 2 we have universal reroll charges. The odds are hard to calculate exactly but if you have a two die reroll and the ability to reroll one at will, you've got about a 3/4 chance of getting in. It's why Ork melee deep strike is so good.

Its about 55% chance

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Thu Nov 23 2017, 19:39

@the_scotsman wrote:
Well, the bright side is past turn 2 we have universal reroll charges. The odds are hard to calculate exactly but if you have a two die reroll and the ability to reroll one at will, you've got about a 3/4 chance of getting in. It's why Ork melee deep strike is so good.

Banshees don't get their +3 if they deep strike, the only thing they have as an advantage is quicken and they can have Saim Hann tactics. Given that well likely get tactics on top of the reroll, I can see us making similar use out of the stratagem once we get a codex.

It's not like Harlequins, for whom it is almost totally useless. They just have no need for it.

If you have to reroll a failed charge, you MUST reroll both the dice.

The only way to reroll just one of them is with a command point.
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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Thu Nov 23 2017, 19:46

True, we calculated it if you are willing to re roll using a CP assuming the other die is at least a 4 then you can get up to 55% chance. Arguably you might want to only do it on a 5 or 6 because re rolling one die with a 4 is only 6% better then just re rolling both which costs nothing

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the_scotsman
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Fri Nov 24 2017, 20:41

Not sure how you came to that average.
Base odds of 9 or better = 10/36 = 27.777, call it 28%

Therefore reroll with reroll = 28+28=56%

Simulating the charge roll on Excel using if functions (basically 2 columns running random 1-6, six columns with an If function looking for 6, 5, and 4 in the two random columns and returning the success odds of a reroll with that number, 66%, 50%, and 33%) with 5000 trials looking at the average it hovers around 71% if you only take 5 or 6, 75% if you're willing to take a reroll on 4.

Basically you combine odds of the initial roll (always 28) with the reroll (28, 33, 50, or 66) to get the total odds (56, 61, 78, 94) then just average that column.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Fri Nov 24 2017, 21:46

I would be curious for a math guy to ponderate our probability, using the non-perfect GW dices. The probability of each result was available, so it could not be too hard to calculate.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Fri Nov 24 2017, 22:19

@FuelDrop wrote:
Tbh +d3 wounds per turn on a Haemie is fluffy and good. The question is why it isn’t stock.

When I first read it, I thought it was an army-wide bonus. Sad


I kinda like the rumoured relic for its flavour. I just really hope it's not the only one we get - since it's very much a flavourful choice as opposed to an effective one. Razz
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Fri Nov 24 2017, 22:32

@The Shredder wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
Tbh +d3 wounds per turn on a Haemie is fluffy and good. The question is why it isn’t stock.

When I first read it, I thought it was an army-wide bonus. Sad


I kinda like the rumoured relic for its flavour. I just really hope it's not the only one we get - since it's very much a flavourful choice as opposed to an effective one. Razz

Effective relics? You do remember the Djinn blade from last edition right?
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Using the rumored chapter Approved changes?   Fri Nov 24 2017, 22:40

@FuelDrop wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
Tbh +d3 wounds per turn on a Haemie is fluffy and good. The question is why it isn’t stock.

When I first read it, I thought it was an army-wide bonus. Sad


I kinda like the rumoured relic for its flavour. I just really hope it's not the only one we get - since it's very much a flavourful choice as opposed to an effective one. Razz

Effective relics? You do remember the Djinn blade from last edition right?

The Doll was good.
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