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 Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here

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SushiBoy013
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PostSubject: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Sun Nov 19 2017, 18:54

Playing against Tyranids currently; here is the situation:

Genestealers just charged a unit of wracks - decimated my unit - then consolidated 3" further into one of my Haemonculi.

My opponent did not declare a charge against this unit, and as such, he is not attempting to attack him; however, he is trying to use his new stratagem "Adrenaline Rush" which states:
"Use this Stratagem at the end of the Fight phase. Select a TYRANIDS unit from your army–that unit can immediately fight again."

My opponent is stating that, this initiates the "Fight Phase" yet again for that unit, and as such - while he cannot attack the HQ that he consolidated into - it does allow for him to consolidate yet another 3" into my next unit.

Does this sound like an appropriate application of this rule?

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Sun Nov 19 2017, 21:14

Haha it's kinda clever.
The only problem i could see with it would be that the stratagem says "can fight" and not "can be activated". Maybe (mayyyybe) you could argue that the pile-in and consolidate moves are part of the activation, and that fighting only refers to the attacks being made, but it's really not a strong point and i wouldn't be surprised if it were debunked easily.

Waiting for someone else to give his opinion Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Sun Nov 19 2017, 21:22

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Haha it's kinda clever.
The only problem i could see with it would be that the stratagem says "can fight" and not "can be activated". Maybe (mayyyybe) you could argue that the pile-in and consolidate moves are part of the activation, and that fighting only refers to the attacks being made, but it's really not a strong point and i wouldn't be surprised if it were debunked easily.

Waiting for someone else to give his opinion Smile

Yeah it is very clever and I honed in on the same thing...didn't say it was activating the phase....but then...how else do we define fight?

Thats ok...he is having fun with the fact that he is wrecking my army with Alpha Strike and that I don't have a codex. Little does he know I'm just going to quit playing till the codex comes out and tell him to blame GW!

Thanks for the sidebar.

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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Sun Nov 19 2017, 21:30

I'm sure you've been asked this question before here, but have you tried bubblewrapping ?

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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Sun Nov 19 2017, 21:31

@Mppqlmd wrote:
I'm sure you've been asked this question before here, but have you tried bubblewrapping ?

I'm not sure what that is!

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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Sun Nov 19 2017, 22:18

He could definitely pile in and consolidate since they don't require you to choose a target so that was amusing that he did it.

Bubble wrapping means putting chaff models around your important models to absorb the charge. Now it's difficult against tyranids since they have ways to punch holes through them and then move. Try and use some units that aren't important at the time and have them farther out from the rest of your army. This will provide additional distance between your opponent's deepstriking unit and your important units.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Sun Nov 19 2017, 22:37

@PFI wrote:
He could definitely pile in and consolidate since they don't require you to choose a target so that was amusing that he did it.

Bubble wrapping means putting chaff models around your important models to absorb the charge. Now it's difficult against tyranids since they have ways to punch holes through them and then move. Try and use some units that aren't important at the time and have them farther out from the rest of your army. This will provide additional distance between your opponent's deepstriking unit and your important units.


Aaaah, then unintentionally I did exactly that! I had 7 wracks that he initially charged, a haemonculus behind them, and another group of 7 wracks behind him. Essentially like this (W = wrack, H = Haemonculus):

__WWW
WW    WW

H

WWWWWWW

Decimated the first group of wracks, consolidated into the haemonculus...then used the stratagem to attempt another 3" consolidation to draw my second group of wracks in.

Personally, I think the liberties being given these units is out of control. For their point value, genestealers are far superior to any other melee unit currently.

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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Sun Nov 19 2017, 23:29

Bubble wrapping is very efficient with Razorwing flocks, because they have a ton of wounds and are quite cheap !

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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Mon Nov 20 2017, 03:42

If the unit has charged that turn, they can only attack the units that they charged against in that fight phase, if your opponent had good foresight, then maybe they would declare a multi charge against your haemonculi as well, otherwise, tough luck for him.


Edit: I re-read the first post. Since the fight phase is over, the rules limiting attacks to the unit that they charged is now over as well. Ergo, your opponent is correct, that's a pretty clever trick. bubble wrap discussion is happening in another thread btw.

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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Mon Nov 20 2017, 04:20

the fight phase isn't over, the strategem says at the end of the fight phase, but not after the fight phase so they couldn't target the haemonc with attacks but they could consolidate and pile in. they should have declared them a target
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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Mon Nov 20 2017, 05:03

The interpretation sounds reasonable, but it wouldn't bother me missing the shooting of a unit of Wracks very much.

I think he would still be limited to attacking units that charges were declared against (as there is no redo of the charge phase), but nothing would stop the pile in and consolidation being repeated.

However, both the pile in and consolidation must end nearer to the nearest enemy, which presumably is the Haemonculus, so it could be tricky to legally pull off a move into the Wracks.

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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Mon Nov 20 2017, 06:02

Quote :
However, both the pile in and consolidation must end nearer to the nearest enemy, which presumably is the Haemonculus, so it could be tricky to legally pull off a move into the Wracks.


Since it's done on a model per model basis, it's not hard to consider how he positionned a single Genestealer closer to the Wracks than to the haemy, just to be able to consolidate into them. Pretty frequent trick.

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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Wed Nov 22 2017, 05:15

I've had this exact scenario happen in a game with Khorne Berzerkers. They get to fight twice without a stratagem. They kill a unit, consolidate into a 2nd unit, do they get to attack again? In our game we settled on a house rule that was if a turn that they charged and they didn't declare charge on both units, then no they can't attack. But if they didn't charge, then yrs they can attack.

Seems appropriate to apply it to the GS strategem.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Wed Nov 22 2017, 10:53

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
However, both the pile in and consolidation must end nearer to the nearest enemy, which presumably is the Haemonculus, so it could be tricky to legally pull off a move into the Wracks.


Since it's done on a model per model basis, it's not hard to consider how he positionned a single Genestealer closer to the Wracks than to the haemy, just to be able to consolidate into them. Pretty frequent trick.

With just the one unit of wracks and the haemie yes. But it's getting into that third unit which would be near impossible. I suppose it could be done but both wracks + haemie would have to be perfectly positioned for it. With 2 separate 3" moves they would need to get beyond the haemie AND closer to the wracks at the same time, whilst starting from beyond 1" away with the initial charge. It'd be very tricky.

To avoid that scenario in the future, make sure you have more than 3" between those units. Then between a 3" move and having to get closer to the nearest enemy model, you're other units will be safe.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Wed Nov 22 2017, 11:01

Does not have to be, he could have started already next to the heamy and move 3 inch, getting to 2.9 of the heamy mostly behind him, so you would have to keep your second unit around 6" apart.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Wed Nov 22 2017, 11:11

OK so I've been looking at it being a frontal charge into Wracks 1. I guess if they came in sideways and wrapped models down the side towards and even beyond the Haemie than it can be engineered to get into Wrack unit 2.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Thu Nov 23 2017, 02:37

I have a solution for you that so far everyone has missed (I think).

When you consolidate, you have to move towards the "nearest enemy model". In this case, it would be your Haemonculous. So he would not be able to consolidate towards your other unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Thu Nov 23 2017, 11:20

The problem is you can move nearer to the heamy while going around the heamy. You don't have to move towards the nearest enemy model, you have to end closer to the nearest enemy model.

Assume you start to the 3 east of the heamonculous with 3.3 inch to the south of the heamy a bunch of wracks.
If you move 2.9 inch to the south of the heamonculous, you have moved closer to the heamonculus so you have moved closer to the nearest enemy model. That you also moved nearer to the wracks (to within roughly 0.5 inch and in combat range) is not important to the sentence that you have to move closer to the nearest enemy model. Hormagaunts who can pile in/considate 6 inch can actually move completely past an enemy model, as long as you end closer then you started everthing is fine.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Fri Dec 01 2017, 05:40

Ah. I see your point.

So that said. I still don't think he'd get a second consolidate move as he was within an inch of the Haemy. Until said haemy is dead, you can't consolidate away from him.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Fri Dec 01 2017, 17:55

Just gonna drop the FAQ rules here to further investigate this topic:

Q: If a unit has an ability that allows it to fght twice in the Fight phase (e.g. Berzerkers), at what point during the Fight phase do they fght for the second time?

A: Treat each time the unit is able to fght as a separate unit selected to fght for all purposes. So, if such a unit charged this turn, it will fght both times before any units that did not charge. If the unit did not charge this turn, then, after all units that did charge have fought, you can select this unit to fght with, then your opponent can select a unit to fght with, then you can select your unit to fght with for the second time (you need not consecutively use both of the unit’s opportunities to fght – unless of course there are no other eligible units to select to fght with).

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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Sat Dec 02 2017, 10:53

The stratagem that Nids have specifically states "at the end of the fight phase" so that 2nd round of fighting couldn't be taken in activation sequence. It will always come last. However, it does very much seem like it would trigger the entire "pile in, fight, consolidate" sequence. It also has no wording to limit this stratagem to a unit that has already fought, or is within 1" (at least if the OP has copied the exact wording). If you wanted to be cheesy you could give any unit a free 6" move towards the nearest enemy at the end of your opponents fight phase, setting you up nicely with a 6" smaller gap to make that charge/shot your opponent carefully left out of range.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Sun Dec 03 2017, 13:09

As I understand it, and based on what scraps are found in FAQs, there is nothing which overides the "must fight who you charged" rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Question for those playing 8th Ed. Tyranids here   Sun Dec 03 2017, 22:06

Ah, I never apologized for messing up "end of the fight phase" and thinking it was over, my bad chaps, sorry about that.

Here's some more rules n proof from the Battle Primer (Pages 8 and 9:

"Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an
enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. "

"You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this
move can be in any direction so long as the model ends
the move closer to the nearest enemy model."

"Models that charged this turn can only target
enemy units that they charged in the previous phase."

6. Consolidate
You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this
move can be in any direction so long as the model ends
the move closer to the nearest enemy model.

So, My reasoning is that if the unit charged this round, made the charge and wiped out the enemy unit, they should be allowed to activate again with the stratagem and do all the steps as stated above.

If they did not charge and wiped out the enemy unit so that they have no enemies within 1" of them, I don't think that the stratagem should/could be used. The stratagem states that they "CAN" fight again, not that they must. If they cannot be activated as stated by the rules, then they don't get the extra pile-in and consolidation.

This might be a case of Codex trumps Rulebook, but this'll probably be a nice question to have FAQ'd the next time around.

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