HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityFAQUsergroupsRegisterLog in
Share | 
 

 How much screen is enough screen?

Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
Chippen
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 179
Join date : 2016-12-18

PostSubject: How much screen is enough screen?   Thu Nov 16 2017, 03:33

Basically title. We've seen a lot of powerful deep striking come and go, from Tempestus to Tau Commanders and now Tyranids being really really nasty at it.

So - how much is enough? Has someone diagrammed/mathed it out to see how much we need to lock down a deployment zone in various deployment maps?

How much screen are you taking, what units are you using, and how are you deploying it?

_________________
Yo ho, yo ho, a drug-fueled BDSM space-elf pirate's life for me!
Can I get a Roll Tide?
Back to top Go down
LordSplata
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 236
Join date : 2017-06-14
Location : Sydney

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Thu Nov 16 2017, 22:51

I really like the idea of this.
Time to get the crayons out!
Back to top Go down
masamune
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 436
Join date : 2017-06-22
Location : Paris

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Fri Nov 17 2017, 10:43

Usually I use clever placement for my vehicules (spaces ~2x9") and a beast pack with 6 RWFlocks, soon 12 flocks.
I chain them and try to blob my army in one or 2 packs, with maximum range for unit cohesion.

_________________
Frenchie, long time painter, trying to get in the 8th edition study, still converting & painting hordes of dark eldars  Twisted Evil
Project log

Dark eldars ~4k points / Battle sisters ~2k points
Back to top Go down
RedRegicide
Wych
avatar

Posts : 638
Join date : 2016-05-20

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Fri Nov 17 2017, 14:10

1 models deep strike null area is 254.47 square inches. So with a 48 x 24 deployment zone you need 4.5 units.

That obviously doesn’t account for those little spaces between the circles or keeping them out of your zone completely.

So I put two models at the top, 9” from either side. That leaves 12” between them unguarded so we add a third.

That gives me 9” coverage past my zone, and 9” at the top. I place a similar line 18” from the first, which covers the rest.

6 units. Take 3 clawed fiends and stick them in well hidden spots near the front and then use your main army to cover the back. Have some chaff to protect your army come turn 2 when they’ve killed some of your first screens, then turn 3 feed them the least important unit since they have to come
In.

3 fiends, maybe some khymera and flocks for the turn 2 block

_________________
“No. Stop. Don’t go in there. You’ll all be killed,’ Motley murmured sardonically”
Back to top Go down
Lyceus
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 85
Join date : 2017-07-10

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Sat Nov 18 2017, 14:23

For a 2000p games how many flocks should I put infront of my army? I want to keep the drops low. 3x4 flocks is not an option. I consider a BM with 9-12 flocks.
Thats 36-48 wounds with possibly some cover saves.

I really dislike to invest in a BM. Has someone already worked out a strategy for screening against first turn assaults (+ tarpit) besides putting your flyers infront of the army?
Back to top Go down
Chippen
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 179
Join date : 2016-12-18

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Sat Nov 18 2017, 15:23

Honestly, I don't know if Razorwing flocks are even the way to go any more. We could just turn Khymerae sideways since they have long models. They'll stick around longer and are more effective offensively.

_________________
Yo ho, yo ho, a drug-fueled BDSM space-elf pirate's life for me!
Can I get a Roll Tide?
Back to top Go down
Lyceus
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 85
Join date : 2017-07-10

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Sat Nov 18 2017, 15:53

I dont see 10 Khymerae even lasting through the opponents psychic phase. How many were you thinking about?
Back to top Go down
yellabelly
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 166
Join date : 2017-11-16

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Sun Nov 19 2017, 11:35

Khymerae are certainly cheaper for table coverage. Two pairs of Khymerae cost less than a minimum sized unit of razorwings and so give better coverage of that 9" exclusion zone. They do melt away if the opponent looks at them funny, but that is still enough to block an alpha strike from deep strikers. Can't inflict any damage to them before the movement phase so their job is done at that point. Razorwings will stick around longer and help cover turns 2 & 3. I guess you pay your points and take your choice. I think I'll use a mix going forwards. Razorwings to block key areas and Khymerae everywhere else.

_________________
Do you fight for the Dark Gods? The Drukhari gave birth to one of them. By partying.
Back to top Go down
Burnage
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 474
Join date : 2017-09-12

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Sun Nov 19 2017, 14:24

If I've done the math right, Khymerae and Razorwing flocks actually take roughly the same amount of firepower to get off the board point-per-point. The Razorwing's greater number of wounds is compensated for by the Khymerae's higher toughness and invulnerable save.

e.g. - 10 Khymerae cost 100 points, 7 Flocks cost 98. You'd need 45 shots from MEQ or 90 from GEQ to kill the Khymerae on average, versus 51 MEQ or 94 GEQ to kill the Flocks.
Back to top Go down
Barrywise
Wych
avatar

Posts : 592
Join date : 2012-11-14
Location : Illinois

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Mon Nov 20 2017, 04:19

I'm going to tack onto the question of "how much" with "Where" and "How" your screen should be set up.

The new rules offer some interesting possibilities. Lets theoretically say you have an enemy unit that is in a conga line, with each model having 1" spacing between the center of their bases, with the nearest model being 2 inches away from one of your units, so each successive model is 3,4,5 etc inches away. Also, you have a heavy weapon team 4" away, bubblewrapped by your friendly unit 2" from the enemy. The enemy declares your bubble unit for the charge, lets say they roll a 10. you overwatch, they remove models from the back, and now, obviously they have "made" their charge.

Here's where it gets interesting. The rules state in section 4.5 Charge Phase: Make Charge Move. That the first model you move, must end up within 1" of the target unit. All other models are allowed to move the value that was rolled on the 2d6 (10 in this case).

*sidenote*Interesting that they don't mention unit coherency, I'll just assume that's mentioned in the movement section that after a move the models in a unit must stay within 2" of one another.

*sidenote2* Also interesting that the movement rules specify that you cannot move within 1" of an enemy unit only during the "movement phase" how do you decide which movement rules do, and don't apply here?

So the enemy can move a model in the back 10" forward so that they are less than 1" away from your bubble unit, this allows the rest of the enemy unit to make their 10" move wherever they want. This means they can end their move within 1" of your heavy weapon team. They cannot attack because they didn't declare a charge against the unit but they can at least tie them up for a turn.

Also, even if the opponent didn't roll a crazy 10 or some other ridiculous number, all they need to be, is less than 4 inches away and be closer to the heavy weapon team than to your bubble unit. This is because of rule 5.2 Fight Phase: Pile In: stating that after a unit is confirmed to be in close combat range, each model can make a 3" movement closer to the nearest enemy model. If the closest enemy model is a model in your heavy weapon team, they can then make a 3" move towards it. If that model ends up within 1", they've successfully locked up your team in combat.

_______________________________________________

So how do you defend against this? I believe you can use the Section 1: Movement Phase to help explain. It basically states that during a movement, the model being moved cannot be moved through other units or through any walls or other terrain features. Although the scenery can be climbed vertically.

Basically, the spacing of your bubble unit should be such, that no enemy model can make it through without touching one of your bubble models base. A standard base is ~1 inch wide, so have your units just under 1" apart and be careful not to remove bubble models from the front, hoping to make the enemy miss their charge, you'll remove the purpose of the wrap. (Unless the enemy is like 9" away, it might be worth it then.)

Also, Leave your heavy weapons team at least 4" if not more away from the wrap. Should your bubble unit survive the initial assault, your opponent can use the next fight phase to try and wrap around your bubble unit after models have been removed in the fight phase, possibly allowing them to move 3" consolidation into your heavy team.

_________________
Want to chat in real time with your fellow archons? Join our Discord channel -> https://discord.gg/5yhRP7v
Back to top Go down
Cerve
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 498
Join date : 2014-10-05
Location : Ferrara - Emiglia Romagna

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Thu Nov 23 2017, 19:57

Why not just Wyches? I'm using them and I'm pretty confortable with them.

5 Wyches are just 45 points, you can add an Agoniser and/or any hydra gauntlet as you wish.

They are cheap, 5 25mm bases, and still Troops. They will die by shooting as Khymeraes, but in CC they are way more usefull. No retreat on infantry is nice, 4++ still nice against MC or characters. They move by 8(10"), and they are great as meatshield.


Honestly, I prefer Wyches over any beast if used as a shield.
Back to top Go down
Mppqlmd
Incubi
avatar

Posts : 1843
Join date : 2017-07-05

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Thu Nov 23 2017, 20:50

Khymeras have the profile of wyches that received 4 drugs at the same time.

For only +1 point, and the loss of a minor rule, they got +2 mvt, +1 T, +1 A and +1 S.

Sure, they don't have a shooting attack, but they are a SERIOUS threat in cc. And that's exactly what Wyches are not.

_________________
My Kabal
Back to top Go down
Cerve
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 498
Join date : 2014-10-05
Location : Ferrara - Emiglia Romagna

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Thu Nov 23 2017, 21:43

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Khymeras have the profile of wyches that received 4 drugs at the same time.

For only +1 point, and the loss of a minor rule, they got +2 mvt, +1 T, +1 A and +1 S.

Sure, they don't have a shooting attack, but they are a SERIOUS threat in cc. And that's exactly what Wyches are not.

A serious threat.....ld2

Good luck.



For what their role is, I don't care much about those bonus. Wyches are better for Ld, and save. That's all what I need for a screen.
I don't care if my 3 Khymeraes will attack better. They still NOT a threat, and sorry but it seems so basic to me that I feel myself a little embarassed right here :-/
Back to top Go down
Mppqlmd
Incubi
avatar

Posts : 1843
Join date : 2017-07-05

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Thu Nov 23 2017, 21:58

Do you need screening units ? Khymeras are better, because 20pts for a screening unit is goddam dirtcheap.

Do you wish a punchy melee unit ? Khymeras are better, because they actually have a melee profile (which wyches, sorry, do not have)

Quote :

I don't care if my 3 Khymeraes will attack better. They still NOT a threat, and sorry but it seems so basic to me that I feel myself a little embarassed right here :-/

Khymeras have one of the best damage/points ratio in our index. They punch quite hard for 10pts, and everything wyches do, Khymeras do better, for the same cost.

_________________
My Kabal
Back to top Go down
Cerve
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 498
Join date : 2014-10-05
Location : Ferrara - Emiglia Romagna

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Thu Nov 23 2017, 22:20

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Do you need screening units ? Khymeras are better, because 20pts for a screening unit is goddam dirtcheap.

Do you wish a punchy melee unit ? Khymeras are better, because they actually have a melee profile (which wyches, sorry, do not have)

Quote :

I don't care if my 3 Khymeraes will attack better. They still NOT a threat, and sorry but it seems so basic to me that I feel myself a little embarassed right here :-/

Khymeras have one of the best damage/points ratio in our index. They punch quite hard for 10pts, and everything wyches do, Khymeras do better, for the same cost.

No they are not. You're litterally talk about math, not considering the game at all.

You're not considering that Khymerae works as a punch unit only with a Beastmaster (which cost), in a Ultramarines snipers meta. No they don't.
And even if you want a punchy unit, take the Fiends. They are just better (and alone themselves, they don't need any Beastmasters).
You're considering that Khymerae are cheaper just by their cost. But they are FA, and our FA are amazing. Where our Troops are kinda meh (Kabalites are good but, with no stratagems, we don't really need 6 CP for now, and our Troops are not tought enought for playing over "objective secure" rule). And, as a screen:
-Wyches are more wounds, which is basically what you want for a screen;
-Wyches have Ld of 8(10). If you wanna kill 5 Wytches, you have to shoot them all down, which is what you want for a screen. For the Dogs, just kill one of them and see how them will flee.
And they are less wounds, anyway.
-Wyches are way more resilience in CC, which is what you want for a screen!!! They almost can try to block come Monstrous Creature, or any Character in CC. Khymerae will block nothing.


Khymerae are faster, which I don't really care for a screen against DS units. They have S4, which I don't litterally care for a screening unit. They have more T, but Wyches can get +1T as well. And K have more attacks, which...ok you got it now.


For a screening purpouse, Wyches opens up way more tactical choices than 3 khymerae. And most of it, the Girls doesn't stole a precious FA slot. Take this list:

Haemonculus (whip)
8 Mandrakes
5 Trueborn (4 Blasters)
5 Trueborn (4 Blasters)
5 Trueborn (4 Blasters)
5 Wyches (Hydra)
5 Wyches (Hydra)
5 Scourges (4 DL)
5 Scourges (4 DL)
Ravager (3 DL)
Ravager (3 DL)
Voidraven (2 Scythes)
Voidraven (2 Scythes)
Venom
Venom
Venom
Venom


In this list I play the 6 elite slots-detachment (can't remember the name). I don't care about +3 CP, I have no stratagems and our HQ are more a tax than other, so I prefer to maximise my choices over the CP.
In this scenario, Khymerae not only are worse than Wyches, but I should pay 2 CP for 2x3 dogs...no way.




It's ok to consider the math, but consider only that is really bad.
Back to top Go down
Mppqlmd
Incubi
avatar

Posts : 1843
Join date : 2017-07-05

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Thu Nov 23 2017, 22:28

Quote :
You're considering that Khymerae are cheaper just by their cost. But they are FA, and our FA are amazing. Where our Troops are kinda meh

This is 8th edition, and you're not building a battalion (because drukhari, duh). FOC slots are irrelevant, you are allowed to take an entire army of FA.

Quote :
-Wyches are more wounds, which is basically what you want for a screen;

No, that's not what you want from screening. They are not there to eat attacks, they are here to prevent deepstriking and charges. For that purpose, the question is : how cheap can my screen unit be ? And the answer is : 2 khymeras, 20pts. Doesn't get any cheaper.

Quote :
-Wyches are way more resilience in CC, which is what you want for a screen!!!

You are mistaking screen with tarpit. If you're using your wyches as screen, it means they are not inside a vehicle. That means they'll never get into CC. Your wyches have 6+ armor against shots, and you'll lose them first turn to a handful of bolter shots.

The only question when building a screen unit is : how cheap can it be (how many can i get for a low budget). This unit is designed to die in the first turn, so having 4++ in cc is totally irrelevant. Khymeras are fieldable in squads of 2, so khymeras are better screen. That's it.

_________________
My Kabal


Last edited by Mppqlmd on Thu Nov 23 2017, 22:36; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Cerve
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 498
Join date : 2014-10-05
Location : Ferrara - Emiglia Romagna

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Thu Nov 23 2017, 22:30

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
You're considering that Khymerae are cheaper just by their cost. But they are FA, and our FA are amazing. Where our Troops are kinda meh

This is 8th edition, and you're not building a battalion (because drukhari, duh). FOC slots are irrelevant, you are allowed to take an entire army of FA.

Quote :
-Wyches are more wounds, which is basically what you want for a screen;

No, that's not what you want from screening. They are not there to eat attacks, they are here to prevent deepstriking and charges. For that purpose, the question is : how cheap can my screen unit be ? And the answer is : 2 khymeras, 20pts. Doesn't get any cheaper.

Quote :
-Wyches are way more resilience in CC, which is what you want for a screen!!!

You are mistaking screen with tarpit. If you're using your wyches as screen, it means they are not inside a vehicle. That means they'll never get into CC. Your wyches have 6+ armor against shots, and you'll lose them first turn to a handful of bolter shots.

The only question when building a screen unit is : how cheaper can it be (how many can i get for a low budget). This unit is designed to die in the first turn, so having 4++ in cc is totally irrelevant. Khymeras are fieldable in squads of 2, so khymeras are better screen. That's it.


I think more "what can I bring more with a silghtly increment of points?" But now I got your point, it's fair enough.
Back to top Go down
|Meavar
Wych
avatar

Posts : 978
Join date : 2017-01-26

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Fri Nov 24 2017, 08:27

I am with Mppqlmd here.

If you want a screen against deep strikers, go for units of 2 hounds, it is the cheapest unit.

And the wyches lose a lot over the hounds, s t w a an invurnerable save, all for some ld and 1 point, if you have a beastmaster nearby there is no problem, if you have units of 2 then most of the time they either survive because no wounds were caused or they both die anyway. It takes 4.5 bolter shots to kill 1 khymera, and 3.2 for a wych.

If you want to tarpit with wyches, yes they are better then hounds, but any unit designed for first turn melee can dish out those few attacks to kill the wyches (it only takes around 27, normal ork commandos, genestealers, beserkers, all the regular beatstick alpha strikers can easily beat them to a bloody pulp).
Which then means that a unit of 2 hounds would have done the same thing for less then half the cost.

I would rather have 5 kabalites then over the wyches, then at least I might kill 1 guy during overwatch, they are nearly as durable, and they are cheaper. And if he does not rely on deep strike melee, they usually do more then wyches.

Back to top Go down
Hellstrom
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 496
Join date : 2014-11-24
Location : South Central England

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Fri Nov 24 2017, 09:34

Razorwings. Yup, not Flocks ... Razorwing Jetfighters. Spread them across your deployment line and nothing that doesn't have the Fly rule can even get within 1 inch of them, let alone charge them. If the enemy shoots them, good. Better than shooting your Ravagers. 3 Flyers take up quite a massive amount of space.
Back to top Go down
Kantalla
Wych
avatar

Posts : 718
Join date : 2015-12-21

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Fri Nov 24 2017, 10:37

@Mppqlmd wrote:
The only question when building a screen unit is : how cheap can it be (how many can i get for a low budget). This unit is designed to die in the first turn, so having 4++ in cc is totally irrelevant. Khymeras are fieldable in squads of 2, so khymeras are better screen. That's it.
There are two other considerations:
1) How much board space do they take up - also good for Khymerae because of the long bases
2) How many points/wound if screening against Smite. In that instance, Razorwing Flocks or Kabalites are a marginally better bet.

Khymerae are a great choice though as a screen unit. Take say 5 units of them for 100 points and most of your deployment zone is denied by completely expendable units.

_________________
From a midnight sky, there is a searing flash, a boom, a brief moment of destruction, and then it is gone.
Kabal of Lightning Strikes - Project Log
Drukhari damage output analysis
Back to top Go down
Mppqlmd
Incubi
avatar

Posts : 1843
Join date : 2017-07-05

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Fri Nov 24 2017, 16:22

That's very true. My main point was that better saves or better abiilties was not a criterium for chosing a screen unit. It's mainly a matter of price, minimal unit number, and size of base.

_________________
My Kabal
Back to top Go down
Kantalla
Wych
avatar

Posts : 718
Join date : 2015-12-21

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Fri Nov 24 2017, 17:55

@Hellstrom wrote:
Razorwings.  Yup, not Flocks ... Razorwing Jetfighters.  Spread them across your deployment line and nothing that doesn't have the Fly rule can even get within 1 inch of them, let alone charge them.  If the enemy shoots them, good.  Better than shooting your Ravagers.  3 Flyers take up quite a massive amount of space.
That's a really good first turn option, but if I was playing a deep strike assault army, and saw that, I would wait for turn 2 when you have had to fly forward and head for the core units instead.

I would also add when thinking about screening units, if you are already taking Kabalite Warriors, you can use them as your screening units without making any changes to your list when facing an opponent you want to castle up against. That way you aren't paying for a screen you might not get much benefit from against other opponents.

_________________
From a midnight sky, there is a searing flash, a boom, a brief moment of destruction, and then it is gone.
Kabal of Lightning Strikes - Project Log
Drukhari damage output analysis
Back to top Go down
|Meavar
Wych
avatar

Posts : 978
Join date : 2017-01-26

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Mon Nov 27 2017, 07:30

@Kantalla wrote:
@Hellstrom wrote:
Razorwings.  Yup, not Flocks ... Razorwing Jetfighters.  Spread them across your deployment line and nothing that doesn't have the Fly rule can even get within 1 inch of them, let alone charge them.  If the enemy shoots them, good.  Better than shooting your Ravagers.  3 Flyers take up quite a massive amount of space.
That's a really good first turn option, but if I was playing a deep strike assault army, and saw that, I would wait for turn 2 when you have had to fly forward and head for the core units instead.

I would also add when thinking about screening units, if you are already taking Kabalite Warriors, you can use them as your screening units without making any changes to your list when facing an opponent you want to castle up against. That way you aren't paying for a screen you might not get much benefit from against other opponents.

Make that third turn, second turn you could just have let them swap places (you can the first turn just move them along your deployment zone (after that you probably have to or you will fly of the map since unlike craftworld flyers we cannot make a 180).
Back to top Go down
FuelDrop
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1388
Join date : 2015-06-21

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Mon Nov 27 2017, 08:13

I really want a dedicated screening unit named something like "slave fodder" which is just ultra cheap wounds for exactly this, with a special rule that lets you shoot into them. Kinda like what Razorwing flocks were befor their points doubled.
Back to top Go down
Chippen
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 179
Join date : 2016-12-18

PostSubject: Re: How much screen is enough screen?   Mon Nov 27 2017, 13:05

It seems to me that with Khymerae being cheap as they are and as (relatively) good in CC as they are, combining tarpit and screening may be the way to go. Minimum size squads give up a lot of kill points if you draw that scenario, and you can knock out two birds with one stone with a couple larger groups of Khymerae.

_________________
Yo ho, yo ho, a drug-fueled BDSM space-elf pirate's life for me!
Can I get a Roll Tide?
Back to top Go down
 
How much screen is enough screen?
Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

 :: Drukhari Tactics
-
Jump to: