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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Wed Nov 22 2017, 02:01

@SushiBoy013 wrote:
@Ikol I actually really like your very comprehensive breakdown! I could get behind all of that!

Thanks mate, appreciated.


Quote :
On a seperate note for the wishlist...I would love to see some sort of invl. save on our incubi.
In a couple of previous threads, I've suggested a 'parry' 'save' for Incubi (and our hilariously underpowered Drazhar).

Last I wrote it up, it went something like this:
"Each time Drazhar is successfully hit whilst locked in combat, roll 1D6.  On a 5+, Drazhar successfully Parries the Attack and the Hit is considered unsuccessful."

Incubi would get the same thing, with a couple of word changes.
In my ideal ruleset, Drazhar would also have 'Riposte'  An old rule that used to be tied to him making an armour save of 6+.
"Each time Drazhar successfully Parries an attack with a roll of 6+, he may immediately make an Attack against the Parried unit."

This has the added benefit of applying to Pistol shots as well.

I also would like to see Klaives become S+2, AP-3, D1.
And Demikliaves become "pick a profile at the start of the fight phase:" S+3, AP-3, D2, -1 to Hit / S+2, AP-3, D1, 2 extra attacks each fight phase.

Edit/addendum that doesn't deserve a separate post:

I'd like to see some general changes to weapons and weapon availability, as well.

Trueborn starting with a Carbine and Pistol rather than a rifle.

All Kabalites having a Poisoned (5+) melee weapon.

Poisoned granting the old utility of "if you'd get an equal or better wound roll just with the attack's strength, then this ability instead lets you reroll failed wound rolls. Applying no benefit against VEHICLE units.

Poisoned.

Splinter weaponry getting S3 under the above schema (helps against low-toughness and hordes, no further benefit).

Splinter Cannon becoming Rapid Fire 4, and dropping to 10 points.

Heat Lance having the 'roll 2D6 for damage' replaced with 'you may reroll failed wound rolls when within half of this weapons range' and 'this weapon deals D3 additional damage to VEHICLES. Just to really solidify its niche as 'Vehicle killer above all else'.

Cost of a Blaster decreased to ten points, to bring it in line with the flat out superior Meltagun.

Shredder changed to Assault D6, S6, AP-2, D2, this weapon automatically hits its target.

Add a Disintegrator Carbine and Disintegrator Pistol. Same range as their Darklight equivalents, Assault/Pistol 3, S5, D1. Keeps them in line with the damage potential of the Darklight.

Special Weapons list changed to include Heat Lance and Disintegrator Carbine.



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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Wed Nov 22 2017, 04:05

I want Hellions and Reavers to be viable, both for offense and being survivable enough to use that offense. 17 points for a model that is as frail as a conscript is not good.
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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Wed Nov 22 2017, 04:46

@FuelDrop wrote:
I want Hellions and Reavers to be viable, both for offense and being survivable enough to use that offense. 17 points for a model that is as frail as a conscript is not good.

Sadly, even if hellions see a massive points drop I'm still not sure I would take them. Reavers on the other hand, I would very much consider depending on how low they drop.

I'm hoping for a points drop for the splinter cannon, blaster, and dissie. Also, I'm really hoping for more wounds and a points reduction for grotesques.
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Marrath
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Wed Nov 22 2017, 08:13

I'd like Combat Drugs for any models that physically have vials on their person, especially Kabalites/Trueborn and Scourges.
Ideally special drugs for them, like advance and shoot/ignore movement penalties or Focusyn(property of Simpsons) which could improve ballistic skill in some way.

Or does that sound overpowered?

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Wed Nov 22 2017, 09:13

@lament.config wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
I want Hellions and Reavers to be viable, both for offense and being survivable enough to use that offense. 17 points for a model that is as frail as a conscript is not good.

Sadly, even if hellions see a massive points drop I'm still not sure I would take them. Reavers on the other hand, I would very much consider depending on how low they drop.

I'm hoping for a points drop for the splinter cannon, blaster, and dissie. Also, I'm really hoping for more wounds and a points reduction for grotesques.

Hellions would be great if they dropped down to 11 or 12 points; they're very much glass cannons but that would be an acceptable price point to me for the amount of glass that they are.

Reavers, I'm not sure about. I almost think they'd need to be halved in price to 15 before I'd run them. They're sort of tough, sure, but that's by Eldar standards and they don't bring much firepower to the table at all.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Wed Nov 22 2017, 09:18

Reavers basic weapon should be changed to shardcarbine, they need a massive points drop and the cluster caltrops and grave talons need to be effective weapons, not just novelty toys.

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Aschen
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Wed Nov 22 2017, 09:20

I'd run reavers if they dropped in points AND you could put splinter cannons on them (ideally Splinter cannons that are better than what we have now) We have better blaster platforms IMO. As Burnage said...they are sort of tough....but in 8th, you really need something that threatens other units. Three blasters and a handful of splinter rifles dont....

I havent ever really run Hellions, so I dont know about them
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Wed Nov 22 2017, 10:07

If hellions were 11-12pts, they'd become quite efficient in terms of damage output/points, but remain very frail. That's what a glass cannon is supposed to be, and i'd love it.

Reavers on the other hand really need to drop the extra wound, but it's not going to happen. I don't think many around here are ready to pay points for an extra wound on every reaver, considering how expensive that extra wound is, and how it doesn't increase their damage output at all.


Grav talon needs to become 1d3 mortal wounds. Cluster caltrops needs to be something entirely different, the best choice being a fly-by ability.


Also, "No escape" could really be an auto-success... there are other units in the game with the "Enemies can't fall back AT ALL" rule.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Wed Nov 22 2017, 11:24

Some suggestions are nice, others are insane.

21 attacks for a succubus, really Ikol, even with just s3 this is insane.

I know that they need something, but going from 4 attacks to 21 is just not going to happen.
Hellions for 11 points is my dream, I really like the look of the models, but they are just to squishy for 17 points, 11 sounds fair.

Reavers need a point drop but mostly need more damage, if this means better special weapons (caltrops etc), or something else matters little as long as they do not become mainly ranged like the fake eldar.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Wed Nov 22 2017, 13:13

What i would like:

Strategem 3 CP

Masters of the webway

Drukari are the undisputed masters of the webway, using it to launch lightning assaults and escapes. To represent this, at the start of the opponents shooting phase, you can activate this strategem.
When your opponent shoots at a drukari VEHICLE, he rolls to hit as normal (including re-rolls) However, to represent the vehicle shifting in and out of the webway, discard any roll of a 1, 2 or 3. He then rolls to wound as normal (including any re-rolls) and you also discard rolls of 1, 2 or 3.
This represents the fact that what the enemy is aiming at might truly not be there.


Yeah, that would be nice....
Would help against reaper spam at least

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Wed Nov 22 2017, 13:34

That kind of rule would clash so hard with the Reapers rule.

What you're suggesting is : enemy units targeting the vehicles cannot have a better hitting threshold than 4+, and a better wounding threshold than 4+. First of all, kinda isane to me ^^

Secondly, the reapers have a rule that allow them to ALWAYS hit on 3+, regardless of other rules.

So what's the result here ?

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Wed Nov 22 2017, 13:47

The result is they hit, but the hit/wound would be discarded. Pretty much a strategem designed with them, and volcano cannons in mind. Pretty simple. Not sure of your confusion.


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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Wed Nov 22 2017, 13:51

I don't think "discarding a hit" is a game notion in 40k. Which leaves 2 choices :
- They have to define it, complexifying the core mecanics for the special rule of a single unit
- They have to express it with an existing notion. Here : "This unit can only be hit by a roll of 4+". But then, it clashes with every other unit that has rules utilizing that notion (here, Reapers).

Basically, you're have one unit saying "i can only be hit on a roll of 4+", and another saying "i always hit on 3+".

Or did you take the "discard a hit/wound" notion from some special rule I am not aware of ? Is it already part of the game (in which case, then yes, your proposition would be applicable).

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Wed Nov 22 2017, 14:08

In a "wish list" thread, I am glad you are being so semantic. But, to amuse myself:
think of it as auto passing an invul save if you must.

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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Wed Nov 22 2017, 15:22

@Skulnbonz wrote:
In a "wish list" thread, I am glad you are being so semantic. But, to amuse myself:
think of it as auto passing an invul save if you must.

Yeah, sorry to ruin the mood, i tend to think very proceduraly when thinking about games.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Thu Nov 23 2017, 01:09

Maybe rampage (+1d3 attacks when outnumbered) on bloodbrides?
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Thu Nov 23 2017, 03:51

Or a special ability to bloodbrides preventing CC opponents to use pistol when outnumbered? (When a few ennemies jump everywhere within your ranks, you can't shoot safely.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Thu Nov 23 2017, 23:53

I think the answer in making Bloodbrides worthwhile lies in fixing Wyches. This and giving every model its own Wych Cult weapon (effectively making them Cult Trueborn).

The problem I have with Wyches is that their greatest strengths barely offset their massive weaknesses. No Escape and the 4++ only mitigate their significant weakness to gunfire. And to mitigate their S3, they only really have their Hydra Gauntlets.

We even have combat drugs on top of all that, but at 9pts a model this is too little too late. To fix them we have 4 possibilities:
- increase stats
- lower cost
- extra rules
- better weapons

Mind you, Wyches are essentially elf gladiators in bikini armor. You can only increase their stats so much before it gets ridiculous. And for what they are, they already have a lot of decent rules. Dodge, No Escape, Power from Pain and Combat Drugs. Possibly, even more rules could eventually make them useful, but I'd prefer avoiding rulebloat.

Honestly, Hydra Gauntlets and Agonizers are quite good too. Re-rolling 4s means 75% success, while hitting on 5s means 55%. Now consider the AP-1 and A3 or S4 with drugs and you have some good offensive power for a horde unit. I see the actual problem in paying an elite price for a horde model.
13pts are not justified when the model dies to a breeze. After all, a 10 woman squad costs 106 points.

Therefore, I honestly think that Wyches are best fixed by adjusted points. Just lowering them to 7pts results in 86pts total. Or 6pts for 76 total (a drastic 40% improvement).
I think this is totally acceptable for a unit that can tie up and wear down an enemy unit. Wyches don't need to kill their targets, it's enough if they make them useless long enough.

On top, make all Cult weapons useful (+1A for Impalers, +1 on No Escape for Shardnets, Mortal wounds on a 6+ for Razorflails).
Now make Bloodbrides 10/11 points, give them each a Cult weapon and suddenly they are a formidable unit that can be specialized in different areas.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Fri Nov 24 2017, 01:25

I disagree. If I wanted a melee horde army I would play Orks.
Wyches should be fairly cheap (9 points isn't breaking the bank) while also being fairly elite. You are paying for your eliteness with your fragility. Fluff wise, I cannot see Wyches as a horde unit.

Bloodbrides should be legit scary. They are veteran gladiators with more combat experience than your average space marine captain.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Fri Nov 24 2017, 08:40

@FuelDrop wrote:
I disagree. If I wanted a melee horde army I would play Orks.
Wyches should be fairly cheap (9 points isn't breaking the bank) while also being fairly elite. You are paying for your eliteness with your fragility. Fluff wise, I cannot see Wyches as a horde unit.

Bloodbrides should be legit scary. They are veteran gladiators with more combat experience than your average space marine captain.

So maybe blood brides should become characters with charcter stat (wound and attack) increases?

I agree with both of you a little bit, I think we should be more expensive then orks, so as to not become a full ork army, but I also don't want any rules bloat.
But in stat's we can't increase that much, while people would love basic str 4 wyches, I think it won't fit the fluff much. Which leaves either giving them ap-1 standard or an extra attack each (and possibly still reduce their points to 8 instead of 9)
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Fri Nov 24 2017, 08:43

@FuelDrop wrote:
I disagree. If I wanted a melee horde army I would play Orks.
Wyches should be fairly cheap (9 points isn't breaking the bank) while also being fairly elite. You are paying for your eliteness with your fragility. Fluff wise, I cannot see Wyches as a horde unit.

Bloodbrides should be legit scary. They are veteran gladiators with more combat experience than your average space marine captain.

So maybe blood brides should become characters with charcter stat (wound and attack) increases?

I agree with both of you a little bit, I think we should be more expensive then orks, so as to not become a full ork army, but I also don't want any rules bloat.
But in stat's we can't increase that much, while people would love basic str 4 wyches, I think it won't fit the fluff much. Which leaves either giving them ap-1 standard or an extra attack each (and possibly still reduce their points to 8 instead of 9.
Remember this still makes them 33% more expensive then basic orks (so a large decrease in number of models we can field), and we still have worse basic stats.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Fri Nov 24 2017, 09:40

@|Meavar wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
I disagree. If I wanted a melee horde army I would play Orks.
Wyches should be fairly cheap (9 points isn't breaking the bank) while also being fairly elite. You are paying for your eliteness with your fragility. Fluff wise, I cannot see Wyches as a horde unit.

Bloodbrides should be legit scary. They are veteran gladiators with more combat experience than your average space marine captain.

So maybe blood brides should become characters with charcter stat (wound and attack) increases?

I agree with both of you a little bit, I think we should be more expensive then orks, so as to not become a full ork army, but I also don't want any rules bloat.
But in stat's we can't increase that much, while people would love basic str 4 wyches, I think it won't fit the fluff much. Which leaves either giving them ap-1 standard or an extra attack each (and possibly still reduce their points to 8 instead of 9.
Remember this still makes them 33% more expensive then basic orks (so a large decrease in number of models we can field), and we still have worse basic stats.

Honestly? we need more rules. our index is the blandest around, with very little to distinguish units beyond weapon loadout. Add to that our very limited supply of weapon options, and our large glut of melee units that tend to have quite a lot of role overlap, and some more special rules to help distinguish units from each other is kinda needed.

Being an army with large amounts of cheap, crappy infantry and cheap, crappy elites that are almost on par with some other armies troop choices isn't appealing to me as a DE player. Given how impressive some other melee units are (Harliquins, Khorne Berserkers, Genestealers, Bloodletters, etc.) it doesn't really seem unreasonable to ask for our melee stuff to be good within their role, especially when you look at how highly they are specialized for said role.

Strength 3 is fine, but given our lack of power weapon access some -1 AP weapons and an extra attack or two each would really help them have a bit of value beyond "50% chance of locking down an enemy for 1 turn thanks to invuls, on fail die horribly in next shooting phase".

Having Wyches, who are supposed to be super fast and deadly, get access to the same base attacks as a lumbering ork boy isn't a big ask. I want Bloodbrides to be at least as threatening as Harliquin Troopes, though lacking the ranged invulnerable save and their hit and run shenanegans to justify lower base cost.

One factor to remember is that Wyches have to be good on their own merit. Most armies have psyker shenanigans and good auras from multiple HQs to make their units better. We have access to one aura due to the way our HQs are divided up, and it isn't a particularly impressive one. So point for point our units should be just a touch better than another armies unit in the same role, because it has to fill that role alone.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Fri Nov 24 2017, 09:44

Unless you give Wyches power armor, they will always remain fancy melee GEQ with some rules and better than average weapons. Which actually applies to a lot of our units.

We are neither a horde army nor an elite army because we have characteristics of both (model stats of a horde army, extra speed, some fancy rules and above-average wargear).

What makes use unique is that we are one of the few finesse armies in the game. Not quite a glass cannon, but certainly an army that cannot rely on pure strength alone.

We are different to Orks (but not only to them) because we can’t simply throw units at an enemy and hope that the enemy dies faster. We need to utilize speed and various game mechanics to get an edge on the field.

And a normal Wych really doesn’t do much and does not justify 9pts. Most of the work comes from Hydra Gauntlets and the Hekatrix with an Agonizer/Power Sword and for those models you pay 13pts in total. And suddenly, that is not so cheap anymore.

I argue, if you simply beef up the stats/combat rules of Wyches you will use them far more carelessly and turn them into Orks more than anything else.

TL;DR: Yes, Wyches shouldn’t be a horde unit in the likes of Orks, Guard or whatnot. But like most of our units, they should have aspects of horde units (their fragility) that is offset to a certain point by rules and warner (the elite unit aspect).

However, only the Hekatrix/Wyches with cult weapons have the offensive capabilities to overcome their fragility. And for those models we are coming very close to what marines pay for their melee units. Giving every Wych a Cult weapon could also be a possibility, but I’d much rather have that reserved for Bloodbrides and adjust their cost accordingly.

The only other reasonable alternative I see that tackles this issue is improving the Hekatarii blade. Probably giving them AP-1

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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Fri Nov 24 2017, 10:31

Since a lot of suggestions seem to have Wyches getting an AP value, would it be better to have that as a quality of their weapons or as an innate special rule?

Follow-up question: Should some Wych Cult units have a flat AP weapon as their standard shtick (I vote Hellions: give them decent strength, number of attack, -1 AP and 2 damage and they can be our heavy infantry hunters. They have most of that already after all!) and some others have rending?
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PostSubject: Re: my wishlist   Fri Nov 24 2017, 10:34

Wyches could get AP-1 to help them kill light infantry.

Hellions on the other hand would interfere with incubi if they received heavy AP.

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