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 Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids

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SushiBoy013
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PostSubject: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 06:40

Wasn't even close. He used the blend of Hive Fleet Jorg and Kraken. Taking full advantage of Kraken speed and Jorg's ability to tack a +1 cover save onto the majority of his units, evidently even while in the wide open.

Pretty deflating. I've been trying to critique how I would alter my army if I knew he was bringing the same thing again, and quite frankly, we just pale in comparison in the following areas:
1) Invulnerable Saves
2) Mortal Wounds
3) negative modifiers to hit
4) sheer firepower output (he used a trygon prime to burrow up with 30 terms sporting Assault 3, S4, AP0, D1 guns...and used a stratagem to allow yet another group of 30 do the same while taking advantage of a 5+ save due to Hive Fleet Jorg)
5) Butchered in the psychic phase
6) SPEED. Everything can either advance across the table in no time flat, or deepstrike 9" away
7) Flyrants weren't exactly easy before but when you're fighting a S6 T7 3+/4++/6+++ with a relic that gives -1 to hit the flyrant, it is near impossible.


The disparity in armys' strengths is just too considerable from those with a codex versus those utilizing the index still. Sad.

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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 06:58

It's unfortunate that hivefleet traits aren't limited to one per army, as it makes no sense, fluffwise, for detachments of different hivefleets to work closely together.
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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 09:24

Out of curiosity, what was your army list in this battle?

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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 13:03

@krayd wrote:
It's unfortunate that hivefleet traits aren't limited to one per army, as it makes no sense, fluffwise, for detachments of different hivefleets to work closely together.

I wholeheartedly agree. In fluff they have even attacked one another

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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 13:49

@krayd wrote:
It's unfortunate that hivefleet traits aren't limited to one per army, as it makes no sense, fluffwise, for detachments of different hivefleets to work closely together.

Considering there is no restrictions on any combination of detachments currently, there's no way they could do that.

So you could absolutely face an army with a detachment of tyrannids coupled with a detachment of space marines with absolutely no negative impact. You'd even still be battle forged.

One of the things that I hate most about this edition. But there it is.

My advice would be to take a CWE detachment to take advantage of their awesomeness
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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 15:03

@Silverglade wrote:
@krayd wrote:
It's unfortunate that hivefleet traits aren't limited to one per army, as it makes no sense, fluffwise, for detachments of different hivefleets to work closely together.

Considering there is no restrictions on any combination of detachments currently, there's no way they could do that.

So you could absolutely face an army with a detachment of tyrannids coupled with a detachment of space marines with absolutely no negative impact.   You'd even still be battle forged.

One of the things that I hate most about this edition.   But there it is.  

My advice would be to take a CWE detachment to take advantage of their awesomeness

You can't take a Tyranid/Marine army in Matched Play - every unit needs at least one faction keyword in common, barring special shenanigans like Genestealer Cult's Brood Brothers rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 15:18

@hekatrixxy wrote:
Out of curiosity, what was your army list in this battle?

Happy to! See below my list and his. I'll place a (J) next to the Nid unit that was Jorg and (K) for Kraken:

Dark Eldar:
HQ
Archon w/Agoniser & Blaster x2
Archon w/Agoniser x1

Troops
Kabalite Warriors w/1 Splinter Cannon & Shredder (10 models total; x3 units)
Kabalite Warriors w/1 Splinter Cannon (10 models; x1 unit)
Kabalite Warriors (5 models; x4 units)

Elites
Beastmaster
Medusae
Medusae

Fast Attack
Hellions x10
Razorwing Flocks (9 models; x2 units)
Scourges w/4 DL (5 models; x2 units)

Heavy Support
Ravager with 3 DL x3


Tyranids
HQ
Hive Tyrant (J)
Hive Tyrant (K)
Broodlord (K)
Malanthrope (J)


Troops
Termagants x30 Devourers (x2 units) (J)
Tyranid Warriors w/Deathspitter (3 models; x2 units) (J)
Genestealers x20 (K)
Genestealers x15 (J)

Heavy Support
Carnifex two Devourers w/Brainleech Worms (K)
Trygon Prime x1 (J)

Game type: Eternal War
Map Type: Hammer & Anvil
First move went to Tyranids

I attempted to screen with razorwings and hellions then provide fire from my ranged units

He dropped both HTs down 9" away. He also burrowed up with his Trygon Prime with 30 termagaunts in it. Then we began to see some of the new strategems. He used 2CP to allow the OTHER 30 terms to come up with the Trygon Prime. So once again, we have the gap in space decimated as he is now 9" away from my nearest units. His group of 20 kraken genestealers moved and advance utilizing Kraken's ability to roll D3 and taking the best for their Advance, so he moved 14" with that group.

Happy to explain anything else that occurred, but the big things were:
1) Kraken trait allowed him to pull his genestealers out of the screen I created and still immediately charge my kabalite warriors
2) Jorg ability simply meant he got a +1 cover save to those units provided they didn't advance
3) Invul. saves were heavily used
4) One HT had -1 to hit and the ability that enabled him to take 1 less wound after he took any wounds for the remainder of the game
5) Regenerated 3 wounds on a HT that had 1 wound left




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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 15:48

You play with no transports?

I’d suggest more dark lances for those big monsters. Maybe make road bumps so you can slow how much he can eat a turn? It’s hard tho because it sounds like he had decent shooting too

I think it’s going to be an uphill battle until we at least get point reductions

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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 15:54

@RedRegicide wrote:
@krayd wrote:
It's unfortunate that hivefleet traits aren't limited to one per army, as it makes no sense, fluffwise, for detachments of different hivefleets to work closely together.

I wholeheartedly agree. In fluff they have even attacked one another

I dont.... Im a nid player and its fluffly to have multi fleets, Nids adapt, they are not stagnant. Dont think of them as different fleets, think of them as a Hive with different adaptations.

All others can have multi <chapters> why wouldnt nids be allowed?



Nids always had negatives to hit tho, thats the main HQ (the Malanthrope), and a 200pt HQ with over 9 wounds and without an Invul is terrible, literally was unplayable.


You having no Transports is kinda weird.....
PS a few things about Nids

1) They always had turn 1 charges with Genestealers, every nid player had 1x20 Man unit doing turn 1 charges, that was the norm.
2) Hive Tyrants were TRASH, completely unplayable without the Invul, its a 170-200+ pt MC that is over 9 wounds so you can target them, without that Invul they always died turn 1.
3) He either cheated OR spend extra CP, that Termagant unit can only be 20 unless you spend 1 CP and then its only within 3" of the Trygon, so i think he played that wrong. He would have spent 3 CP for those 2 gant units and all had to be within 3" of the "Burrowers"
4) The Jormungandr also doesnt work if they charge


Honestly it looks like he was playing fair with you, you can charge 60 genestealers turn 1 from DSing without trying, and can do the same with a 30man Hormagant unit, a HT can DS and charge turn 1 also and he WILL kill every unit from DE with 1 melee (Unless its a 12man unit of birds, he will only kill 5 bases).

They are going to be king at Mass S4/S6 shooting (talking about 300 shots) with Melee Alpha strike army until people learn to deal with them.

Keep them at 24"+ range to win, its there weakness, OH and Flyers, if you can have Flyers stay away from them it will really hurt.  Sadly.. Venoms might be best against them, Mass amounts of them with a couple Splinter cannons Trueborns, lots of RWF's for anti-DS'ers,

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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 16:00

@RedRegicide wrote:
You play with no transports?

I’d suggest more dark lances for those big monsters. Maybe make road bumps so you can slow how much he can eat a turn? It’s hard tho because it sounds like he had decent shooting too

I think it’s going to be an uphill battle until we at least get point reductions

The reality (or at least MY reality...) is that there is no running from armies anymore. Our transports can be run down and the standard guns brought on these units are strong enough and the range long enough to make it a moot point. Typically I use transports, but if you're throwing two Flyrants down 9" away from my army, I'm not getting very far with my transport. So I opted for more firepower.

Razorwings were suppose to be the "road bumps", but again...Hive Fleet Kraken allows you to disengage from melee and still charge in the same turn. He moonwalked right through my speed bumps without batting an eye.

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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 16:03

Thats not fully true, using terrain and Fly vehicles you can stop melee for a few turns, do you play with just LoS blocking terrain? Or do you also try to play with multi levels here and there? Playing on flat terrain isnt fun at all.

I played my Hormaganst and Hive Tyrants charges due to "raised" terrain, we also have Tree's here and there, those are -2 to charge into.

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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 16:07

@RedRegicide wrote:
@krayd wrote:
It's unfortunate that hivefleet traits aren't limited to one per army, as it makes no sense, fluffwise, for detachments of different hivefleets to work closely together.


Keep them at 24"+ range to win, its there weakness, OH and Flyers, if you can have Flyers stay away from them it will really hurt.  Sadly.. Venoms might be best against them, Mass amounts of them with a couple Splinter cannons Trueborns, lots of RWF's for anti-DS'ers,

I appreciate your input/insight. I play against Tyranids almost exclusively these days...if you play as Tyranids, I don't think I have to tell you just how impossible it is to keep 24" distance between us.

Tyranids have always had -1 to hit, but it was dependent upon being tethered to a slower unit. A HT with -1 anywhere and everywhere is a little different (same for carnifex, but a little less daunting given the limited speed)

It is weird to not bring transports, but someone is going to have to demonstrate to me how they are "keeping distance" against an army with a troop choice that has a significant capability to move/advance 14" regularly and charge to boot.

Agree he came about the game honest. I actually told him, i don't know why anyone playing Tyranids wouldn't opt to simply run 60 genestealers from here on out; no accounting for it.

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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 16:08

Yeah i guess thats true. altho transports wouldve helped absorb some of that gaunt shooting.

I doubt Id fare much better against that list :/

@amishprn86 I honestly don't love any army using multiple different sub factions. I think we'll be forced too to play all our units but still. Altho your fluff answer does make it more palatable

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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 16:09

@amishprn86 wrote:
Thats not fully true, using terrain and Fly vehicles you can stop melee for a few turns, do you play with just LoS blocking terrain? Or do you also try to play with multi levels here and there? Playing on flat terrain isnt fun at all.

I played my Hormaganst and Hive Tyrants charges due to "raised" terrain, we also have Tree's here and there, those are -2 to charge into.

Admittedly the terrain was pretty flat/bare.

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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 17:15

@SushiBoy013 wrote:
@RedRegicide wrote:
@krayd wrote:
It's unfortunate that hivefleet traits aren't limited to one per army, as it makes no sense, fluffwise, for detachments of different hivefleets to work closely together.


Keep them at 24"+ range to win, its there weakness, OH and Flyers, if you can have Flyers stay away from them it will really hurt.  Sadly.. Venoms might be best against them, Mass amounts of them with a couple Splinter cannons Trueborns, lots of RWF's for anti-DS'ers,

I appreciate your input/insight. I play against Tyranids almost exclusively these days...if you play as Tyranids, I don't think I have to tell you just how impossible it is to keep 24" distance between us.

Tyranids have always had -1 to hit, but it was dependent upon being tethered to a slower unit. A HT with -1 anywhere and everywhere is a little different (same for carnifex, but a little less daunting given the limited speed)

It is weird to not bring transports, but someone is going to have to demonstrate to me how they are "keeping distance" against an army with a troop choice that has a significant capability to move/advance 14" regularly and charge to boot.

Agree he came about the game honest. I actually told him, i don't know why anyone playing Tyranids wouldn't opt to simply run 60 genestealers from here on out; no accounting for it.


I didnt think the HT had -1 to hit Bio-morph? (A friend has my book atm, but i remember i couldnt give it to him), i'll have to check that later.

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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 17:19

That would be good to know! Obviously it has been out for maybe 24hrs, so mistakes will be made, but he did apply biomorph to his HT.

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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 17:27

One concern that I have with your list is that you're spending 1000 points on chaff units (Kabalites, Razorwings, Hellions); you could drop 30 Kabalites and the 2 units of Razorwings to keep your Brigade but take nearly 500 points of scarier units.
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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 17:40

@Burnage wrote:
One concern that I have with your list is that you're spending 1000 points on chaff units (Kabalites, Razorwings, Hellions); you could drop 30 Kabalites and the 2 units of Razorwings to keep your Brigade but take nearly 500 points of scarier units.

Big question would be: what wold you put in your list in lieu of approx. 1000 points? I do not disagree wth your assessment, but I'm trying to find a manner to efficiently bring the firepower necessary to handle considerable T3 mobs, hold at bay 5+/5++/5+++(catalyst) genestealers, and a host of monstrous creatures. Splinter rifle numbers seemed most appropriate at the time.

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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 17:49

@SushiBoy013 wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
One concern that I have with your list is that you're spending 1000 points on chaff units (Kabalites, Razorwings, Hellions); you could drop 30 Kabalites and the 2 units of Razorwings to keep your Brigade but take nearly 500 points of scarier units.

Big question would be: what wold you put in your list in lieu of approx. 1000 points? I do not disagree wth your assessment, but I'm trying to find a manner to efficiently bring the firepower necessary to handle considerable T3 mobs, hold at bay 5+/5++/5+++(catalyst) genestealers, and a host of monstrous creatures. Splinter rifle numbers seemed most appropriate at the time.

I'm not suggesting replacing them entirely, just cutting down on how much you're spending on what are essentially screening units.

I've had very good experiences with a small allied detachment of a Farseer Skyrunner/ 5 x Rangers/ 6 x Scatter Laser Windriders. That makes big things die much quicker (thanks to the Farseer's Doom and the Rangers' mortal wounds), small hordes die much quicker (Guide and 24 Strength 6 shots) and can act as protection against deep striking units (with the Forewarned Strategem).

If you want to stick to a purely Dark Eldar list I'm not sure what I'd recommend. Flyers, Incubi, Clawed Fiends could all work well. Three Razorwing Jetfighters with 2 Dark Lances and a Splinter Cannon each are only 510 points and will, I suspect, be tough for most of a Tyranid list to handle.


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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 18:01

@SushiBoy013 wrote:
That would be good to know! Obviously it has been out for maybe 24hrs, so mistakes will be made, but he did apply biomorph to his HT.

Yeah if you could take a -1 to hit, everyone would just run 7 HT's lol, thats only like 1300pts, and they would take the rest as Gants/Stealers.

Only 3 units can take those -1 to hit and its the 2 Carnifex's units. Otherwise you need a Venomthrope or Malanthrope unit within 3/6"

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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 18:06

PS, more terrain, and have dudes in front of vehicles (8" in front thats the magic number) I think that will do it for you Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 18:15

@amishprn86 wrote:
PS, more terrain, and have dudes in front of vehicles (8" in front thats the magic number) I think that will do it for you Smile

Greatly appreciated! i will give it a shot.

EDIT: He just sent me the rule it looks like a Warlord trait. Chameleonic Mutation. All range fire shot at the warlord receives a -1 to hit.

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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 19:16

AH ok, i havent used that one yet, i dont really care for it, tforgot about it (many b/c the book is so new cant remember them all).


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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 19:39

Oh I didn’t read your list right, didn’t see the triple ravagers.

Khymera are a good option, you already have the BM

Hellions might be good when chapter approved webway comes out

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PostSubject: Re: Welp...just fought 8th edition Tyranids   Sun Nov 12 2017, 21:18

Chameleonic Mutation is the Kraken Relic.

I've tried running all foot Kabalites before and they just don't cut it, too expensive to run in the kinds of numbers that guard and nids do (though those 2x30 man units of devilgaunts are 480pts with BS4+) and just not resilient enough to last long enough to do anything. And you paid for Shredders!? Why?

Honestly, this looks like a rather poor DE list going up against a well rounded Nids list, I am not surprised you had such a bad result.
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