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 Force orgs and Kabal, Covens or Cult?

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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Force orgs and Kabal, Covens or Cult?   Sat Nov 11 2017, 10:27

Hey guys, looking at the chapter approved rumours, a few people have guessed that GW is going to keep us as 3 separate groups under one faction.

Assuming you have up to 3 force orgs, how will you structure your list?

My first thought was 3 specialty detachments, but that isnt a lot of CP, especially if I want to use the webway strategem.

Im leaning to Wych Cult primary (battalion) and COoven secondary, OR just a pure wych brigade with some hammys and grots.

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PostSubject: Re: Force orgs and Kabal, Covens or Cult?   Sat Nov 11 2017, 10:39

Barring major buffs or alterations to any units; Kabal Battalion and a "Covens" detachment that is mostly just a Haemonculus with unaligned units like Scourges and some dedicated transports to take advantage of the Haemonculus aura. If we get points reductions I'll throw in a Wych Cult detachment too.

The big limiter is going to be our HQs. We'll have more options for detachments if we get some dirt cheap HQs.
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PostSubject: Re: Force orgs and Kabal, Covens or Cult?   Sat Nov 11 2017, 10:52

Oh that's clever, I was wondering if we'd lose the hammy transport trick but that should solve it.

Yes, HQs are the major limiter for us. Whenever I'm trying to build a list with a lot of CP they are always my major sticking point

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PostSubject: Re: Force orgs and Kabal, Covens or Cult?   Sat Nov 11 2017, 11:04

I'd love the Beastmaster and the Court of the Archons to be HQs. Considering their price tag it's not that much to ask.

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PostSubject: Re: Force orgs and Kabal, Covens or Cult?   Sat Nov 11 2017, 11:18

@Mppqlmd wrote:
I'd love the Beastmaster and the Court of the Archons to be HQs. Considering their price tag it's not that much to ask.

Definitely want to see beast master as an hq. Itd be nice if all 3 groups had a lesser hq and main hq, but that wont happen due to lack of models unfortunately

I don't think the court should be HQs because it doesnt make any fluff sense. most of them have terrible leadership or are mind controlled

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PostSubject: Re: Force orgs and Kabal, Covens or Cult?   Sat Nov 11 2017, 11:55

Here my take on the court :

- Should always come with an Archon. No Archon, no court.

- They should be a unit. GW should publish a box with a fixed combination of courtesans, and make it the standard lay-out of the unit (2 ghuls, 2 lhaemeans, 1 medusa, 1 slyths. Something like that. Again, stat drop and points drop).

- Should be a HQ slot. They might not (all) be charismatic, or even really sentient, but they are a token of power, wealth and autority. An Archon with a court has more authority than an Archon without a court, so they should give an authority (aka, HQ slots) bonus.

- They should bring utility. Poison auras for the Lhaemy. Rage aura for the Urghul. Medusa could debuff LD. Sslyth can stay an elite fighter.

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PostSubject: Re: Force orgs and Kabal, Covens or Cult?   Sat Nov 11 2017, 12:13

I agree with your first point,

I wouldnt mind cheaper models for the court, if that was a box set sure. standard layout maybe not. Because if one is bad it reduced the whole unit

If they come with an archon mandatory then i wouldnt mind them filling other hq slots up

problem with buffs like that is then wed have almost too many buff IMO. Lhaemy should be more of an assassin, thatd be cool.

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PostSubject: Re: Force orgs and Kabal, Covens or Cult?   Sat Nov 11 2017, 14:45

I'm pretty new to The Dark City, but I was just wondering...has anyone considered the possibility that GW approaches our Cult/Coven/Kabal conundrum by making 4-6 "Houses" (If you will...) with each house having a a specific trait for Cult/Coven/Kabal? Not saying I like this concept; actually I'm saying I really dislike this concept as I think it would lead to a dilution in the overall abilities we would receive...but it would essentially give us bundled options that would address all three.

Example:

House: The Black Heart
Trait 1) Kabal of the Black Heart...
Trait 2) Cult of the Black Heart...
Trait 3) Coven of the Black Heart...

Does this sound too convoluted? Again, of all the theories out there, this is probably my least favorite for fear that we become "jack of all trades, master of none"...but wondering if this theory had been proposed!

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PostSubject: Re: Force orgs and Kabal, Covens or Cult?   Sat Nov 11 2017, 14:58

@SushiBoy013 wrote:
I'm pretty new to The Dark City, but I was just wondering...has anyone considered the possibility that GW approaches our Cult/Coven/Kabal conundrum by making 4-6 "Houses" (If you will...) with each house having a a specific trait for Cult/Coven/Kabal? Not saying I like this concept; actually I'm saying I really dislike this concept as I think it would lead to a dilution in the overall abilities we would receive...but it would essentially give us bundled options that would address all three.

Example:

House: The Black Heart
Trait 1) Kabal of the Black Heart...
Trait 2) Cult of the Black Heart...
Trait 3) Coven of the Black Heart...

Does this sound too convoluted? Again, of all the theories out there, this is probably my least favorite for fear that we become "jack of all trades, master of none"...but wondering if this theory had been proposed!

Highly unlikely, as Coven, Cults and Kabals are 3 distinctively different entities who are acknowledged as such everywhere in the fluff. The Black Heart does not participate in Cult business and is best friends with the Kabal of Strife (iirc). Same applies for Covens, and while the Black Heart employs the servies of several covens, they don't have any Haemonculi directly working for them.

Of course, there are always exceptions (like in the books, where Vect orders a Haemonculus to work on a secret project as a form of ironic punishment). Nonetheless, there is also no practical reason of having one house fulfulling different roles as we got plenty of such houses within the dark city.

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PostSubject: Re: Force orgs and Kabal, Covens or Cult?   Sat Nov 11 2017, 15:33

I appreciate that insight! Actually very relieved for the fluff-related incompatibility.

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PostSubject: Re: Force orgs and Kabal, Covens or Cult?   Sat Nov 11 2017, 15:36

What I want to see:
Each force org chart can pick one each of Cult, Coven and Kabal traits, and units within that detachment from the relevant sub-faction get that bonus.

Cheaper, better HQs, with flexibilty.

Focus on any subfaction is viable, be it Cult, Coven, or Kabal.

What I expect to see:
One force org chart per subfaction.

More limited, expensive HQs with no significant improvements from the index.

Spamming one or two units within one subfaction is the only viable way to build an army.

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PostSubject: Re: Force orgs and Kabal, Covens or Cult?   Sat Nov 11 2017, 16:56

I think some of what we have seen with armies like Tyranids suggests your former idea is more likely than your latter, FuelDrop.

Tyranids can take multiple hive fleets with the drawback that one hive fleet's fleet-specific traits and synapse do not bleed over. I think that's very much in line with Kabal/Coven/Cult traits being played simultaneously.

To add to that, I would hope we would have auras that are based around keyword <Drukhari>. We are hurting for some decent auras!!

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PostSubject: Re: Force orgs and Kabal, Covens or Cult?   Sat Nov 11 2017, 18:26

Also nids got the malanthrope upgraded to HQ, and he’s cheap. So hopefully GW spreads that love

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PostSubject: Re: Force orgs and Kabal, Covens or Cult?   Sun Nov 12 2017, 01:36

I hope they don't split us into multi faction within our own faction.

Not saying I'm against it, just saying it could make list building more cookie cutter and restricted.

DE raiding parties are many times a mix of the "walks of life" in Commorragh. Eldar (sorry gee bud) society has been shown to be very fluid with the Ynnari and even in the Path of the DE series.

Making beastmasters and a mandrake HQ could help as we could run multiple detachments though.
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PostSubject: Re: Force orgs and Kabal, Covens or Cult?   Sun Nov 12 2017, 03:03

@RedRegicide wrote:
Itd be nice if all 3 groups had a lesser hq and main hq, but that wont happen due to lack of models unfortunately

I wouldn't necessarily jump to that conclusion. Space Marines have a Lieutenant option in their codex but no official model. I would love to have true beat stick Archons, Succubi and Haemonculi that are 100pts+ but confer sufficient advantages to justify the points, but then have lesser Archons, Succubi and Haemonculi that are in the 30-60 points range.

The lesser versions of each could offer a weaker version of the main HQ's aura buff (assuming our main HQs actually get some decent aura buffs) and a smaller equipment list. For example a Haemonculus could have something like +1 to invulnerable saves for nearby coven units, but the lesser version would just get re-roll 1s to save.

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PostSubject: Re: Force orgs and Kabal, Covens or Cult?   Sun Nov 12 2017, 05:01

Oh really? I thought they were purging all models they hadn’t officially castes. That’s reassuring!

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PostSubject: Re: Force orgs and Kabal, Covens or Cult?   Sun Nov 12 2017, 05:39

@RedRegicide wrote:
Oh really? I thought they were purging all models they hadn’t officially castes. That’s reassuring!

Don't be silly! only Xenos are getting their lists purged!

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PostSubject: Re: Force orgs and Kabal, Covens or Cult?   Sun Nov 12 2017, 07:28

Another concern I have with the presumed approach is that it ignores the plethora of exceptions in the rules. How is someone supposed to play the Kabal of the Flayed Skull when they can't take Jetbikes? There's plenty of examples of Archon's with personal Pain Engines to help save them from the touch of She Who Thirsts. Even in the Path of the Dark Eldar series, the Kabal of the Bladed Desire, is, by all functionality, a Cult, yet it is headed by an Archon. Similarly in the series, we see that Incubi have been known to serve a particular Kabal for millenia, I'm hard pressed to find a reason why they wouldn't benefit from auras and doctrines when they've been in service longer than half of the Kabal's senior leadership!

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