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 Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems

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SushiBoy013
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Sat Nov 11 2017, 03:54

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Moreover, if these are true, it shows that GW is doubling down on the segregated approach to our sub-factions. As I've stated before, this is concerning to me.

I think I fall closer in line with your concern regarding the segregation of our traits than I am optimistic. I'd much prefer the broad, sweeping approach similar to hive fleets, and then within your army you can pick and choose which units are classified as a specific fleet.

Unless I can classify any unit as Kabal/Cult/Coven, this is just an additional layer of separation to break us down by.

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Sat Nov 11 2017, 07:25

I just realized that, assuming that the wording is correct, the Succubus warlord trait will activate on rolls of 5 or 6 from round 3 onward, due to the +1 to hit bonus from PfP... but only if the Succubus uses an agonizer/weapon that isn't an archite glaive. This also means that it won't activate at all for the archite glaive until turn 3 onward, due to the -1 to hit when using it.

As an aside, I still think that the archite glaive needs to be buffed to do the same damage as the star glaive (D3) if GW is going to insist on keeping them unwieldy
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Sat Nov 11 2017, 12:27

I wouldn't read to much into the exact wording posted, assuming this info is even accurate. Most likely someone has paraphrased/rephrased based on what they could remember after having seen some draft copy somehow.

The third warlord trait seems decent to me. An Archon with that trait and the relic pistol could work quite well. Assuming the relic pistol replaces a splinter pistol, then you can build a reasonably strong Archon for only 58pts, which is pretty cheap. Combine the regenerating wounds from the pistol, the shadow field and one or two Sslyth (who will hopefully receive a downwards points adjustment) for wound allocation shenanigans and your warlord could be pretty frustrating to take out.

Also the webway strike doesn't have to be used to get units into combat asap, it can be used to help deny alpha strikes by keeping units off the board if you don't get first turn. I will probably experiment with a Grotesque bomb w/ Haemonculus entering via webway. Saves me having to buy a Raider or two for them. Hopefully Grotesques will go down in points as well.

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SushiBoy013
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Sat Nov 11 2017, 13:34

@hekatrixxy wrote:
Also the webway strike doesn't have to be used to get units into combat asap, it can be used to help deny alpha strikes by keeping units off the board if you don't get first turn. I will probably experiment with a Grotesque bomb w/ Haemonculus entering via webway. Saves me having to buy a Raider or two for them. Hopefully Grotesques will go down in points as well.

With all the stratagems & unit abilities that allow models to stay off the board, it feels overused or too common. I'm sure I'm exaggerating, but it seems like every army's answer these days is, "you can't hit it if it isn't on the board!" which essentially means we are all playing the same game, tactically.

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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Sat Nov 11 2017, 15:13

If these rumours are true, then all aledari have access to webway. Do other armies have similar strategems?

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Sun Nov 12 2017, 14:01

I personally see opportunity here.

I would take a CWE detachment and a Druchari detachment.

Plop 2 squads of wraithguard to pop tanks etc... I then am liking the idea of squads of trueborn for massed dakka vs. hordes of infantry. interesting tactical opportunities. I may actually use splinterborn again! something I haven't done since 5th ed.
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Mon Nov 13 2017, 20:28

Eh, I'll wait till chapter approved comes out to pass judgement ... As I remember the last time dakka did something on de rumors (mighta been bols I don't remember) they claimed that venoms would be able to move 12 inches then let wyches disembark their 6" and that some other units would see some buffs along with a new named archon ... And ... well ... still waiting on all that ... So yeah ... I'll wait till I see it as I'm sure there's a lot more then what was leaked
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Mon Nov 13 2017, 21:08

@Archon_91 wrote:
Eh, I'll wait till chapter approved comes out to pass judgement ... As I remember the last time dakka did something on de rumors (mighta been bols I don't remember) they claimed that venoms would be able to move 12 inches then let wyches disembark their 6" and that some other units would see some buffs along with a new named archon ... And ... well ... still waiting on all that ... So yeah ... I'll wait till I see it as I'm sure there's a lot more then what was leaked

I would prefer an old named archon.
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Tue Nov 14 2017, 14:39

Do you guys trust the BoLS article that said gulliman was going up 25 points? A lot of the comments from ultra players said they don’t even use him and his big game breaker is imperial soup.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/11/188734.html

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Tue Nov 14 2017, 14:53

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Do you guys trust the BoLS article that said gulliman was going up 25 points? A lot of the comments from ultra players said they don’t even use him and his big game breaker is imperial soup.

Assault Cannons and Razorbacks are getting a bump up too. I still think he should go up to 12ish wounds so people can combat him, but all in all, this is a decent fix.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Tue Nov 14 2017, 14:53

I don't think +25 points will really make a difference. Anyone taking him now will still take him at +25 points.

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Tue Nov 14 2017, 15:34

Idk about your metas, but if razorbacks and their assault cannons (that’s their gun right?) go up and gulliman goes up, the ultra player and the dude who cloned his list will be nerfed.

They spam razor backs, with grav teams, lead by gulliman

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Tue Nov 14 2017, 15:36

If the numbers on that leak are right, it's +14 points for a Twin Assault Cannon Razorback. Combined with +25 for Bob Gee, the net result will probably be 1 less Razorback? It's a nerf but not exactly meta-busting.

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Tue Nov 14 2017, 15:45

Oh :/ I didn’t know their previous point values.

Combined with point drops for us it may not change their list dramatically but it will balance the playing field a little

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 15 2017, 18:23

The irony is, the only way the playing field will be balanced is when every army has a codex, because every army has the same stratagems and army bonuses essentially, and thus every army is basically going to be treated the same.

Which, weirdly, is something I said a long long time ago. The only way to balance the game is to make everyone the same.

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 15 2017, 18:25

@TeenageAngst wrote:
The irony is, the only way the playing field will be balanced is when every army has a codex, because every army has the same stratagems and army bonuses essentially, and thus every army is basically going to be treated the same.

Which, weirdly, is something I said a long long time ago. The only way to balance the game is to make everyone the same.


Its the same sort of balancing acts MMO's need to deal with - do you make everyone unique and unbalanced, or everyone balanced but boring? Its a hard line to ride.
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 15 2017, 19:26

In no way is balanced a synonym for boring.
And when factions become too unique and individual, you soon end up with an unplayable mess.

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 15 2017, 19:36

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In no way is balanced a synonym for boring.
And when factions become too unique and individual, you soon end up with an unplayable mess.

In another sense, I'm left to wonder why about a third of strategems and doctrines are just copy pasted from another book.

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 15 2017, 20:07

Consider that third to be the part of each army that is universally shared. There are tactics, strategies and ideas across multitude of armies that are pretty comparable, which is why when something comes along that can't be fully handled by those tactics it becomes a real problem for all the armies participating. But there is a bit of uniqueness within those armies, the two thirds that aren't copy pasted, gives them a unique enough fitting style that they aren't the same army, baseline they will be the same, but looking at the finesse of the army they are different. Balance with a bit of uniqueness.
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 15 2017, 22:42

I think the 1/3 being very similar is basically just expanding our re roll, interupt and auto pass morale stratagems that everyone gets

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 15 2017, 22:48

Honestly it differs from codex to codex, and thus is probably a problem of motivation from the writers. The Tyrannid codex is VERY unique, with cool doctrines like troops moving with their own cover, rerolling to hit when you are in numerical advantage, etc. and unique (and fluffy) stratagems, like the very cool Feeder Tendrils.

Then you have the CW recipe, which is basically : take the abilities that have already been imagined, and mix them up for a new faction. The only inspired stratagem in that book is the Fire Prism focused fire, which is totally awesome. The rest is copy pasta and meh ideas.

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Wed Nov 15 2017, 22:53

That's what I'm saying-were seeing a LOT of repetition, which makes things seem a little more bland but lends to balance. I'm not saying it's all or nothing either way, but it seems to me were sacrificing uniqueness of factions (to some degree) in order to achieve balance.

If 1/3 of the codex is a stratagem by any other name, that's boring. That's 1/3 of the options which could have been unique, fun, interesting things. But, if everyone has access to the same stratagem, then you really can't complain about balance.
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Thu Nov 16 2017, 03:08

@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
That's what I'm saying-were seeing a LOT of repetition, which makes things seem a little more bland but lends to balance. I'm not saying it's all or nothing either way, but it seems to me were sacrificing uniqueness of factions (to some degree) in order to achieve balance.

If 1/3 of the codex is a stratagem by any other name, that's boring. That's 1/3 of the options which could have been unique, fun, interesting things. But, if everyone has access to the same stratagem, then you really can't complain about balance.

I think the idea that shared stratagems across multiple armies creates balance is suggesting a false equivalency. If everything else was held equal for unit stats, weaponry, abilities, etc...then I would agree, but it isn't the case.

To that point, I think it is important for GW to not take a 'cookie cutter' approach to stratagems. Will there be some that naturally work with multiple armies? Sure, but I promise it will still be to varying degrees.

This has been my biggest concern for Dark Eldar after CWE codex was released. If ever it was simple to apply the majority of a pre-existing army's stratagem's to another army I imagine it would be CWE & DE. I hope I am wrong; I think we all see the potential for some really cool stuff Dark Eldar-specific.

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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Thu Nov 16 2017, 09:04

I agree, repeating the same stratagems does not neccesarily lead to better balance.

I don't mind repeating some stratagems. If say 1/3 of the stratagems are "common" (often seen in different armies) 1/3 are "special" (seen among similar armies) and 1/3 are unique then I think that is fine.
Unfortunately this is only something you can really do well if you make the game as a whole, and is very fiddicult if you have different writers at different times making different codexes like they do now. And than you end up with some factions having lot's of nice unique stratagems, and others only having copy pastes.

And all of this does nothing to help balance. Consider an imperial guard army with lots of high power units and cheap units which thus can use a stratagem to fight on a 2+ for a powerfull vehicle which usually fights very badly, now consider the same stratagem for our army without superheavies already hitting better but having less strength and ap and no multiple wounds and without lots of command points, the stratagem will be nearly worhtless, while dealing damage in melee with our vehicles does feel right and fluffy to me. So even just sharing stratagems does not balance it at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved Rumors - warlord traits/relics/stratagems   Thu Nov 16 2017, 14:04

I didn’t think about that, you’re right, the combos are all different

I wouldn’t mind a couple of the craft world ones, some seem cool. But I really do want cool fluffy ones like the nids got

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